«Š„”«ŕŌ «Š‘ő’Ū «Š—ř„Ū

„‘«ŚŌ… «Šš”ő… Ŗ«„Š… : English Belief in ONE GOD



Safar
08-16-2014, 12:00 PM
The importance of faith has been central to humanity since its existence;people always felt the need for belief in supernatural powers.Therfore,many deities were created and worshiped to fulfil the psychological and mental as well as the spiritual void which otherwise would overwhem the hearts and the minds of those worshipers.However, polytheism could never provide any help for those who supported it and it even made things worse for them.Hence, Bilieving in one God stands as The best and only perfect way to find answers for our instinctive quests and to fullfil our spiritual voids and to satisfy our pschological needs.Islam represents The perfect and the purest form of monotheism,and its followers by consequence and by experience are the most intuitvely and spiritually stable people on earth.

Islam-Is-Knowledge
08-16-2014, 03:30 PM
Great piece brother; just as a reminder, monotheism is the original belief whereas polytheism is its deformed image. The latter resulted from over-focusing and visualizing Godís names, powers or His pious followers into physical forms. These were revered at the beginning then worshiped. Although this fact is evident through many studies, a lot lately, especially on the internet, are discussing and investigating the invention of monotheism as a later anthropological advancement that stemmed from polytheism. This view is definitely rejected as it has no grounds other than degrading God's justness.

Safar
08-16-2014, 04:27 PM
Peace be upon you brother, my point was not to show which belief was the original ,as this is evident and known to every Muslim rather than to show how finding the the true belief changes the life of individuals and societis to happiness and spiritual stability.

Islam-Is-Knowledge
08-16-2014, 05:36 PM
:): God bless you brother, it was just a reminder for readers. Your style clearly shows you are way far from such an accusation.

Charlie1965
09-10-2015, 06:14 PM
just as a reminder, monotheism is the original belief whereas polytheism is its deformed image.
-any evidence for that? I suppose you must have it, some references maybe? I am just interested.

my point was not to show which belief was the original ,as this is evident and known to every Muslim
- So you guys really have evidence for it, please present it.

Charlie1965
09-10-2015, 06:26 PM
Since the the name of the thread is BELIEF IN ONE GOD, I have 2 questions concerning that:
Can god lie, in other words be dishonest, (if he exists)? 1.
2. Assuming there is really some external power communicating with people through religions (using religious scriptures, revealing itself to some chosen people, etc.) - How do you know this is god and not something else?

Thanks for your reply and cheers!

„”Š„ √”śŌ
09-11-2015, 07:48 AM
You don't even admit the existence of the creator yet . Arguing about which religion is right based on its evidence is meaningless at this point . Finish your other conversation .

Charlie1965
09-11-2015, 06:36 PM
You don't even admit the existence of the creator yet . Arguing about which religion is right based on its evidence is meaningless at this point . Finish your other conversation .

I don't need to believe in god to hypothetically speak about one.
In fact, it is much more objective and meaningful when you speak about something you are not emotionally attached to, because your feelings won't cloud your reasoning then.

But I am not going to tell you to quit talking about god for that reason, you should be free to talk about anything you like, and so should I.
I don't also need to finish one conversation to begin another.

So, my first question is: considering that Islam is not just a man-made concept, but there is something more to it, some supernatural power that influenced chosen people so they could actually compose the Torah, the Bible and the Quran, how do we know this supernatural power is actually god?

„”Š„ √”śŌ
09-11-2015, 07:43 PM
żFreedom to do whatever you want cliche aside , arguing in this subject is futile messing around . That's putting the cart before the horse . And in arguing to prove to you that Islam is the right message we'll obviously be arguing to prove the existence of the creator first . Or what , you'd eventually be convinced that Islam is the true message from Allah whom you STILL claim doesn't exist ?!

Charlie1965
09-11-2015, 11:49 PM
żFreedom to do whatever you want cliche aside , arguing in this subject is futile messing around . That's putting the cart before the horse . And in arguing to prove to you that Islam is the right message we'll obviously be arguing to prove the existence of the creator first . Or what , you'd eventually be convinced that Islam is the true message from Allah whom you STILL claim doesn't exist ?!

It is true, I reject god.
But let's forget about it for the sake of this discussion.
Let's say you guys are so awesome that you really managed to convince me, and from now on I am a god believer or at least someone who is willing to consider god as a possibility - a more open-minded person, not as ignorant as atheists obviously are. ;)

So I am searching among various religions, since they talk about god, perhaps looking for one good choice if there is a chance for that.
What reasons do I have to believe that Islam represents the true and only god?
Isn't it risky for me to join Islam? Isn't there a big chance that by becoming a Muslim I will go to hell instead of the promised heaven?

„”Š„ √”śŌ
09-12-2015, 08:47 AM
żżżżżOnce more , all of this is meaningless because you don't even admit the existence of a creator . żThat's trying to reach the second to last step on a stair right off the bat . Again , putting the cart ahead of the horse . And let me make this clear from the beginning : Do not think we "fear" arguing for Islam being the true religion . We're as sure of it as we are sure of the creator existing . It's a given to us . It is just a matter of order and organization .ż

Charlie1965
09-12-2015, 12:20 PM
żżżżżOnce more , all of this is meaningless because you don't even admit the existence of a creator . żThat's trying to reach the second to last step on a stair right off the bat . Again , putting the cart ahead of the horse . And let me make this clear from the beginning : Do not think we "fear" arguing for Islam being the true religion . We're as sure of it as we are sure of the creator existing . It's a given to us . It is just a matter of order and organization .ż


There are people who already believe in god, but are not members of any religion, and those who treat god as a possibility. I would like to know what you tell them to turn them to your religion. I won't say in this thread god doesn't exist. Let's assume there is a possibility.

If you are not afraid, there should be no problem.

If god is or can be real: WHY ISLAM?

I will not say here that your argument is senseless because you have no evidence for god. We are already assuming god is real or could be real. So please, tell me how you would convince an agnostic or a believer of god.

„”Š„ √”śŌ
09-12-2015, 01:00 PM
There are people who already believe in god, but are not members of any religionż

Yes , in that case , we'd be discussing proof for Islam . But you're not one of those people , are you ?ż


I would like to know what you tell them to turn them to your religion.ż

There are many things we present as evidence for that . And there are threads dedicated to that but I can't seem to remember one that's in English here because clearly , this forum is mainly Arabic .ż


If you are not afraid, there should be no problem.ż

There is no problem , if you're one of those who believe in a creator but don't follow a religion .ż


So please, tell me how you would convince an agnostic or a believer of god.ż

żIf it's out of curiosity on your side , some arguments would be that the people of the prophet peace upon him themselves admit that he's well known as "The Honest Truthful One" . Accusing him of lying would be difficult . Another is how Quran left all Arabians in awe as they found waging war much easier than trying to bring something like it in eloquence and clear meanings and he's an illiterate person who , according to their own testimony , never came up with any żform of poetry in addition to the vast difference of styles between Quran and his own words peace upon him . One can't just switch that easily between two distinct linguistic styles . Claiming he wanted wealth with his invitation (Da'wa) is also out of the question as the narrations reveal how apathetic he's been for worldly gains to the degree that cooking fire wouldn't be ignited in his house for a month . Also , the prophecies he made . Calling two or three of them "lucky shots" might look reasonable , but not tens to over a hundred of them .ż

These are some of them .ż

„”Š„ √”śŌ
09-12-2015, 01:06 PM
But before all of that , we'd be arguing for monotheism and how Allah is one who has no peer or partner .ż

Charlie1965
09-12-2015, 01:41 PM
ż

Yes , in that case , we'd be discussing proof for Islam . But you're not one of those people , are you ?ż

ż

There are many things we present as evidence for that . And there are threads dedicated to that but I can't seem to remember one that's in English here because clearly , this forum is mainly Arabic .ż

ż

There is no problem , if you're one of those who believe in a creator but don't follow a religion .ż

ż

żIf it's out of curiosity on your side , some arguments would be that the people of the prophet peace upon him themselves admit that he's well known as "The Honest Truthful One" . Accusing him of lying would be difficult . Another is how Quran left all Arabians in awe as they found waging war much easier than trying to bring something like it in eloquence and clear meanings and he's an illiterate person who , according to their own testimony , never came up with any żform of poetry in addition to the vast difference of styles between Quran and his own words peace upon him . One can't just switch that easily between two distinct linguistic styles . Claiming he wanted wealth with his invitation (Da'wa) is also out of the question as the narrations reveal how apathetic he's been for worldly gains to the degree that cooking fire wouldn't be ignited in his house for a month . Also , the prophecies he made . Calling two or three of them "lucky shots" might look reasonable , but not tens to over a hundred of them .ż

These are some of them .ż

Thanks for the answer. :)

So let's assume men of the past, including Muhammad (since he is responsible for deeds which are extraordinary), had contact with some supernatural intelligent power. I am willing to agree on this for the sake of this discussion again.
How do we know this power is really honest with us? The power calls itself the HONEST TRUTHFUL ONE, does it mean it is one? What keeps it from lying?

By the way, I would love to know about those prophecies, if you don't mind sharing the info. But perhaps in a separate thread if you have one for that.

„”Š„ √”śŌ
09-12-2015, 05:14 PM
I rest my case . When it gets to such lengths as to associate the almighty with lying after you - for argument sake - admit his existence and divine nature , we KNOW it's not about proof . I leave the rest to Kira .ż

And by the by , it is prophet Muhammad peace upon him whose people called "The Honest & Truthful" . Though Allah states that nothing is more truthful than his words , this name isn't associated with him .ż

Charlie1965
09-12-2015, 05:39 PM
I rest my case . When it gets to such lengths as to associate the almighty with lying after you - for argument sake - admit his existence and divine nature , we KNOW it's not about proof . I leave the rest to Kira .ż

And by the by , it is prophet Muhammad peace upon him whose people called "The Honest & Truthful" . Though Allah states that nothing is more truthful than his words , this name isn't associated with him .ż

1.
.Even if god exists, it doesn't mean he is ALMIGHTY. We don't even know whether omnipotence is possible. But even if god is really almighty, it means he can do anything, so he should be able to lie as well.

2.
Muhammad could have been very honest about his experience with this superpower, he seemed to have believed that he made contact with it which he described as caring and loving creator of the universe called god.
But he was just a man who couldn't possibly verify what he was dealing with.
It could have been something completely different than god, like a daemon, or some other dark conscious energy..

3.
So potentially if god exists, you Muslims may have nothing to do with him apart from believing in one. You could be praying because some daemon tells you to. And that sounds pretty scary, if you ask me

So do you think it is safe to join Islam while it may have nothing to do with god?
While praying you could be making spiritual contact with some evil entity.
Aren't you scared this may lead you to damnation?

Charlie1965
09-12-2015, 06:00 PM
I have at least 2 possible scenarios concerning god and your religion which are different from what you believe:
1.
If god is real and he really made contact with Muhammad and other prophets before him, his aim could be opposite to what he says it is.
Believers of Islam, Christianity and Judaism think that they are supposed to obey god, and believe in him no matter what. And this is what will make them worthy of entering HEAVEN.
But what if god of those religions lied? What if he really wants us to be sceptical, to think independently? To question everything? To avoid blind faith based on wishful thinking? To forget about afterlife and to have no expectations concerning that?
What if the real test is passed when you reject religion, and it is failed when you are gullible enough to accept it?
2.
If god is real, Islam may have nothing to do with it. Muhammad could have contacted some other entity which told him to obey it and pray. Praying and wilful obedience allows it to take control over believers' minds who, after death, instead of reaching heaven, get eternal torments or vanish completely.

IF GOD IS REAL, HIS NATURE MAY HAVE LITTLE TO DO WITH WHAT IS COMMONLY STATED.

Do you agree these scenarios are as possible to be true as the one you believe in, Brothers?

„”Š„ √”śŌ
09-12-2015, 08:36 PM
.Even if god exists, it doesn't mean he is ALMIGHTY. We don't even know whether omnipotence is possible.

Then we're flipping back at step one ! When we say "creator" we're talking about the omnipotent . Honestly , I'm ending this meaningless arguing here until you finish what you're doing with Kira . It feels like a middle schooler wants me to explain how rockets work before teaching him the basics of mechanics , chemistry , and physics (Not that I know a thing about rocket science of course) .ż I knew Atheists can go to ridiculous lengths and come up with any "scenario" no matter how outrageous as long as it means refusing to believe in Allah , but your case is beyond my wildest expectations really . And this farce we're going through right now is EXACTLY why I said it's meaningless to talk about this subject while you don't even admit to the existence of Allah .ż

Charlie1965
09-13-2015, 01:06 PM
I already agreed here to assume god is a possibility for the sake of this discussion. And I didn't contradict that at all with any argument I gave in this thread.
So I am not talking from the perspective of an atheist, atheists do not assume god exists or may exist, right?
I am giving arguments every believer of the creator of the universe could.

So imagine this is not an atheist questioning your faith but someone who believes god is a possibility or that god exists without a doubt.
And they have the following questions:
Why should a believer of god claim god is almighty?
Why should a believer of god not take those 2 scenarios above seriously and stay away from Islam as it could be leading to total damnation?

I don't see how your views concerning god and your religion are better so please refrain from name calling, as it suggests you have nothing to offer in this discussion, and answer my questions.

Charlie1965
10-08-2015, 06:31 PM
Since the claims you mentioned lack evidence, I am basically against them all, typically for an atheist/sceptic. Only ignoring that fact allows me to consider them, which I did. Then I heard arguments for the claims from you and others, but eventually I could easily produce many others which supported other unprovable claims opposite to yours. So this is where I stand:
1. If everything is intelligently designed, 1 god is as possible as 2, 5 or 1000 gods.
2. If god or gods exist, there is no need or even much of a basis for his/their perfection, omnipotence, omnipresence or omniscience.
3. There might be a goal for us yet totally different from what most believers claim it to be, or we could as well be a side effect of something else.
4. The message is most likely man-made, but if it isnít, it could be both true, untrue, and even not coming from god but from other sources.
5. The likelihood for Islam to be correct is so low that being a Muslim, if intelligent designer(s) exist(s), is a very risky and illogical business.
It is definitely like a pyramid where claim 5 can not exist without 1, 2, 3 and 4, which makes the likelihood of the correctness for Islam to be extremely low. It is way below 1%.

No matter what claims you put forward, whether they come from the Quran (like the ones concerning god and angels, etc.) or from a science book, they should undergo the same criticism. Otherwise it is really a matter of preferences - thus subjective.

Thanks for the tips. I tried to be as brief as I could.

ďif you want to exchange abuses then it will be good to apologize and then leave never to returnĒ
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That was not my intention, and I would like to remind you you were the first one comparing me with a middle schooler with ridiculous scenarios. And one of your fellows called atheism propaganda. And the most important thing - you didnít back this up with any evidence, refraining just to namecalling.
Then I am not the only one who should watch out when sharing opinions.
And if I said Muslims use manipulation, it is because they actually do.

„Õ» «Š√„Š «Š√Õ„Ō
10-09-2015, 10:49 AM
Since the claims you mentioned lack evidence

And the most important thing - you didnít back this up with any evidence
if you donít see the "universe" itself as an evidence , i say you can't see any, not in the near future
again :
the "universe" is the evidence
the "universe" is the evidence
the "universe" is the evidence

how can't you see or understand that from us until now !!!

if you can't see that until now & after all that talk pleas return when you do ..


I already agreed here to assume god is a possibility
this is not an answer !!!

do not assume at all

YOU yourself are "withĒ that belief OR "notĒ?!! z
Yes\No
LEARN HOW TO ANSER US Please.

Charlie1965
10-09-2015, 06:39 PM
A. So you are basically saying I should not speak with you until I think the way you do. WOW. I mean I am astonished you could say something like that. Is this how you lead debates in your home town? Surely it must save a lot of energy. LOL.

B. You know I am an atheist, so it is pointless to ask me twice about my position concerning god and intelligent design. And I understood all your arguments. But then I refuted all of them with counter arguments and more. So now I should perhaps ask: Why donít you SEE the universe the way I do, since all your claims have been successfully taken down?

C. You can sit on a stone and then see it as a chair, it may even be shaped like one. But it doesn't mean it was designed to be a chair or that it was designed at all. Is this place designed for the flower to grow?
https://whatsinyourgarden.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/dsc_0014.jpg
If something is possible and it happens, does it need to have been designed?


D. But then even IF THE UNIVERSE WAS INTELLIGENTLY DESIGNED, IF THERE WAS A WILL TO MAKE IT EXIST, ISLAM IS STILL EXTREMELY UNLIKELY TO BE CORRECT ABOUT MOST IF NOT ALL OF ITS UNPROVABLE CLAIMS - THEREFORE, IT IS VERY UNREASONABLE AND DANGEROUS TO BE A MUSLIM.
- This is my STATEMENT concerning your religion, do you have anything to say about that or NOT? Will you eventually refer to my answer concerning your 5 claims? Or will you escape as usual?
- Doing so you will prove that even in an intelligently designed universe, it is unwise to be a Muslim.

Thanks and cheers. :)

„Õ» «Š√„Š «Š√Õ„Ō
10-11-2015, 04:10 AM
until I think the way you do.
NO, until you have the right to do

If you don't you are cycling in an empty cycle for sure
Because you donít have the prerequisites for it


B. You know I am an atheist, so it is pointless to ask me twice about my position concerning god and intelligent design
But you didnít get me a straight answer until now for yes\no question!!
So I still have the right to hear it...
I am talking about Creation of the universe notĒ intelligent designĒ
Itís a very simple equation to you to manage an answer for it you know!!

But then I refuted all of them with counter arguments and more
You didnít do any!!
You are just arguing with no goal at all, and with no answer just delaying the inevitable!!


Why donít you SEE the universe the way I do
Because you are thinking ďinĒ the universe but not ďatĒ the universe like me

....You can sit on a stone and then see it as a chair
Please donít over thinking my proposal here, I didnít talk about any of that at all itís just your imagination about my believe no more, and itís all RONG sorry
I didnít talk about any intelligent destine yet at all
All I did talk about and need an answer from you upon is the creating reason no more
And if have any intelligent yourself you must have a reasonable answer for that at the least
What I am taking about:
1- the creator, must be existing
2- who have nothing cannot give anything

please retrace all my posts for that if you need


But then even IF

ISLAM IS STILL EXTREMELY UNLIKELY TO BE

Still speeding up with yourself!!
We will go there but not yet, so please donít think any about us as believers because you will not get it right by yourself at this point

This kind of self-defense is something pointless anyway

IS VERY UNREASONABLE AND DANGEROUS TO BE A MUSLIM

For dangerous:
may be that can be correct for your view at this point
with your kind of media at your country as usual
But you know what?
You may have to deal with it sooner or later any way
We all in the same world any way
For unreasonable:
I donít see any at this point

Charlie1965
10-15-2015, 01:07 AM
A. Here we go again, you must feel really uncomfortable to talk about it if you need to use such a lame excuse. And I can easily use it as well: You donít have the right to talk about reality, because you are detached from it and so are your claims. Moreover, you donít have the right to talk about god since you are emotionally bound to the idea which clouds your reasoning.

B. It is you who needs to learn to respond to my arguments and questions instead of escaping. My major problem with Islam has been the same since I entered this forum and even before:
What makes your scenario concerning intelligent design better/more credible and logical than others, especially the ones I presented?

C. You didnít present arguments for one perfect god who created the universe and us for the specific purpose mentioned in the Quran. You presented arguments just for intelligent design of the universe. The only guy who actually tried to argue for one perfect god and against my claims was Supersayan God. And I gave counter-arguments for all your claims, and his as well. Show me one claim for which I didnít give answers/arguments. Just one.

D. Why would you even bother to ask me whether I find god a necessity? Donít you know I am an atheist? Isnít the answer obvious? It is like asking a Muslim whether he believes Muhammad was a prophet or not.
There is no evidence the universe requires a creator, and there is no evidence a creator of universes is even possible to exist. And sure I referred to the intelligent design concept, because without it your creator becomes totally pointless, and it is the main argument supporting it among creationists.

E. Give me the media sources telling that your religion means peril to every member of it in the universe as long as it is intelligently designed. Otherwise, you just assumed it. And you were wrong. Again.

E. I exactly explained why it is unreasonable to be a Muslim even if god or gods exist, for which you have no answer, and you know you have none, thatís why you wonít go further in the talk. Your god is as possible as a thousand other things which makes your religion pretty funny to be a part of.

ďmay be that can be correct for your view at this pointĒ
Go on and prove yours is better than mine. Otherwise this discussion is really over.

„Õ» «Š√„Š «Š√Õ„Ō
10-15-2015, 02:10 AM
That mean:
a. you donít have an answer for my :)
===========
b. your major problem with Islam is preconceptions in your mind
Thatís not our problem

Again: there is no intelligent design in Islam at all
We have something more powerful than that little thing you still talking about
But i didn't go there yet because you canít comprehend some less point
So i had to go with you as your understanding can catch
You are asking way ahead of your understanding in Islam
I still canít answer you with no point you can comprehend as base for it
So get less time or more for that
But sorry you must answer or set and wait as you wish
==========
c. i did get you a hole "universe" for that
But in the other hand:
1- You just repeat yourself, with no logic for me to answer at
2- You don't have any alternative
==========


d. did i say GOD as start ?!!

i did say Creator yes
We need him as GOD
But for you:
You donít see any GOD
But you must see the need of the Creator for the universe

Catch the logic here 1st, whatever what you are

There is no anything in the universe supporting the say:
"The universe can exist with no creator"
At all & and that, i can prove all the way
This is your error in you logic as starting point to fork away from us

If there is no evidence the universe requires a creator
Then get me 1 simple example for a thing can create itself from nothing
with no any lab supporting that existance if you can
To prove what youíre saying at least

============
e. This is not what I am talking about, seems to have lost a lot in translation,, please review

============

e. Just improper provoking
no info .

Go on and prove yours is better than mine. Otherwise this discussion is really over.
you dont have any to say "mine"
we have a saying :

Argument failed wipe the blackboard
:)

do whatever you see good for you , its your life, you are gambling about

Charlie1965
10-16-2015, 06:14 PM
B. Specify what misconception you mean I hold which concerns Islam.

Again: there is no intelligent design in Islam at all
- WHAT? Isnít god all-knowing in the Quran? Isnít his universe intelligently designed?
We have something more powerful than that little thing you still talking about
- What is it?
But i didn't go there yet because you canít comprehend some less point
- No, you donít comprehend I have already dealt with your reasoning.
So i had to go with you as your understanding can catch
You are asking way ahead of your understanding in Islam
You confuse understanding with believing. I comprehend what you believe in and why and I simply reject that for the reasons I gave you.

C. i did get you a hole "universe" for that
But in the other hand:
1- You just repeat yourself, with no logic for me to answer at
2- You don't have any alternative
- So what you did it if itís wrong and baseless?
- There are lots of theories out there not involving god at all. Donít ask me, ask physicists.
It is not my job. I am just a sceptic who blows your senseless ideas away. Thatís it.
- You should know about that since you are interested in the origins of the universe. So do you? Have you read about any theory so you could say it is wrong in comparison to your GOD DONE DID IT idea?

D. did i say GOD as start ?!! I did say Creator yes We need him as GOD
But for you:
You donít see any GOD
- Neither do you, unless you have mental issues.
There is no anything in the universe supporting the say:
"The universe can exist with no creator"
- Except that it does actually and you have nothing to prove it cannot without god or gods.
There is nothing supporting the existence of any creators in the first place. You are adding an element which has no logical ground - therefore poses an additional problem.
- It is you who repeats himself and I just had to repeat myself after you. You made me, because you ignored what I already said. So donít accuse me of going in circles. You do it either because you canít comprehend what I say or you just purposely ignore it.

If there is no evidence the universe requires a creator
- Whatís the evidence invisible gnomes donít live in forests? Do you have any? If not, it means they exist. This is how stupid your argument is. Am I just amazed to read how far you went with that. Good job.
Then get me 1 simple example for a thing can create itself from nothing
Who says there are only two possible scenarios like nothing or the creator? You do. You assume it and you have NOTHING to back this up with. There are lots of things in the universe happening naturally, so yeah there you have it. And applying the rules from within the universe to the outside of the universe doesnít seem to be okay.
HOW CAN WE TALK ABOUT ANYTHING IF YOU THROW BASELESS ASSUMPTIONS FOR EVERY POINT YOU MAKE?

F. you dont have any to say "mine"
Yes, I do. But you will never answer me there, this is the ground where you know you fail.
I gave you scenarios competing with yours - they are compatible with the divine creation of the universe as well as with the intelligent design concept. All I said is that they are as possible as yours. And you were supposed to give an answer for that, which you failed to do proving being a Muslim in a divinely created world is a logical failure.

we have a saying :
Argument failed wipe the blackboard
- You forgot to apply it properly.

do whatever you see good for you , its your life, you are gambling about
- You are the gambler here, I am just neutral and open-minded.

Nowhere have you proven that intelligent design/the universe requires one god. So don't say god. Say "GOD OR GODS" from now, unless you give me evidence there is just one.

As you said before, we didn't get there, so be objective until we do, if we ever do.

„Õ» «Š√„Š «Š√Õ„Ō
10-20-2015, 04:16 AM
Again: there is no intelligent design in Islam at all
- WHAT? Isnít god all-knowing in the Quran? Isnít his universe intelligently designed?


No not "intelligently designed" itís perfectly established.
(But of course you donít know the difference, do you?)


We have something more powerful than that little thing you still talking about
- What is it?
As if you could understand there is a force has to be created the universe in the 1st place!!
Talk as you knowledge can comprehend from me no more.
Conform the initial force 1st then try to anticipate his attributes as well as all other normal people
If you have any pre-thinking that you have or any knowledge about Islam pleas but it all in the recycle bin for the time, and take it step by step to know the logic behind every step leading to the other next step.

If you canít respect that then you are hopeless in that regard.



But i didn't go there yet because you canít comprehend some less point
- No, you donít comprehend I have already dealt with your reasoning.
"Dealt" :)!!
Your "forfeit" with no base for anything you name it "dealtĒ!!
Ok say whatever, that wonít do anything in the reality.


So i had to go with you as your understanding can catch
You are asking way ahead of your understanding in Islam
You confuse understanding with believing. I comprehend what you believe in and why and I simply reject that for the reasons I gave you.
again: your rejection wonít do anything, you are just thinking you are delaying the inevitable but you donít, itís not in your hand at all, you will die as a fact, and then you will relive again as fact but you then will have nothing at all to depend on in front of the creator and that is big deal then.

Please understand to believe, if not you will not evolve from this step at all.


There are lots of theories out there not involving god at all.
i donít care about them at all because i am not responsible for their right or wrong, they are all wrong for what i care,, and i can confirm that for you later if you wish in another title in the form with the name of every "theory" you need to drop you time in later,,
And even the name ďtheory" means itís not conformed,
But religion is a conformed and fact not theory.
I just care about Islam thatís what i can talk about and relay on,


You should know about that since you are interested in the origins of the universe. So do you?
No, I donít.
Iím am just need conformation about the initial force for the creation of the universe, not his details at all, no more no less .


Except that it does actually
Does what??
Are you in your right mind their?!!
There is no scientific evidence on that at all;
otherwise you will see a whole lot of universeís pop up every ware.

There is nothing supporting the existence of any creators in the first place.
I see you are here then he must be their too,
if not you will not be here in the 1st place.
Itís as simple as that.

If your existence here has anything to prove it logically,
then its "mostly" the same thing to prove the existence of the creator,
think in it for some time, itís fair enough.

Who says there are only two possible scenarios like nothing or the creator?
You do.
You assume it and you have NOTHING to back this up with.

Let say i do say that,
i have reality to back this up,
if you have anything to dispute that pleas do
but know that i am talking
about the "universe itself"
not "in" the universe
there is a big difference..

There are lots of things in the universe happening naturally
I am not interested in the universe sorry..


And applying the rules from within the universe to the outside of the universe doesnít seem to be okay.

good rule, will need it later..

HOW CAN WE TALK ABOUT ANYTHING IF YOU THROW BASELESS ASSUMPTIONS FOR EVERY POINT YOU MAKE?
where??


I gave you scenarios competing with yours
1- I'm not competing
2- any other "scenarios" is "wrong" mostly, but i have no time at all to talk about every failed thing
so just refute my argument logically by itself and no more
3- Islam didn't mention all these "scenarios", therefor I donít care about their right or wrong at all.



they are compatible with the divine creation of the universe as well as with the intelligent design concept.
All I said is that they are as possible as yours.
And you were supposed to give an answer for that,
So what?!!
they may be has some right in it, they all not my concern wither they right or wrong
i am not obligated to answer for anything i did not accept or believe in ,
take it to his people not us here,
thatís why i did tell you that you disperse yourself,,
you didn't talk about any logic in thatt regard to replay on,,
all what i am concern about is the base logic i did tell you until now..


- You are the gambler here, I am just neutral and open-minded.
we all gambling here but :
- i am on paradise in the other life or what a am in it => they are all good
- and you are on hell in the other life or what you are in it => its a huge risk



Nowhere have you proven that intelligent design/the universe requires one god. So don't say god. Say "GOD OR GODS" from now, unless you give me evidence there is just one.

As you said before, we didn't get there, so be objective until we do, if we ever do.
Islam talking about 1 GOD, NO MORE.
There is NO any other GOD unless they are all (or some of them) GODLESS like (so basically we can ignore them)
i did say that clearly before , so please review it.
---
the universe need a force to initiate its existence we call it GOD and for you itís the Creator
and you couldnít dispute that until now at all
if you donít see that until now itís not my problem ,sorry it out of my hand..
---
there is NO "INTELLIGENT DESIGN" AT ALL
intelligent mean there is some stupidity in the other hand too!!,
thatís not the case here at all ,
there are "PERFECTLLY ESTABLISHED" universe here with "0" ERROR from the 1st pang...

Charlie1965
10-20-2015, 06:31 AM
No not "intelligently designed" itís perfectly established.
(But of course you donít know the difference, do you?)
- The only reason I referred to it is because your Muslim fellows did that, and they even did that in the debate on this forum. So I guess these arguments of theirs are all wrong and senseless.
- This is one of the definitions of Ďperfectí: excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement
- Then prove it to me the universe could not have been better created. Otherwise, itís either not a perfect god or gods, or not god or gods at all who are responsible for the universe.
- Prove it to me perfectness is possible to exist anywhere.
- Btw, why did you repeat this claim 2 times, at the beginning and at the end of the post? You first tell me to be brief and then you break the rule yourself?
IN THE FUTURE DONíT SET RULES YOU WONíT KEEP.

Conform the initial force 1st then try to anticipate HIS attributes as well as all other normal people
- So I should anticipate attributes of something which is not provable in the first place, attributes which themselves are not provable to be able to exist like: perfectness, omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence. And you call that logic. Very interesting.
- Donít say HIS as if it was just one god, you havenít proven that it gets limited to just one god. So that claim is in the recycle bin.

If you canít respect that then you are hopeless in that regard.
- It is not about respect, I could respect your preferences if you agreed itís just about that. But you call it knowledge, which undergoes just the same criticism any other sorts of information would.


Your "forfeit" with no base for anything you name it "dealtĒ!!
Ok say whatever, that wonít do anything in the reality.
- I am not the one making claims here. You are. So you need a base for each of them. And since you donít have it or itís just a set of assumptions, I blow it off. This is how logic works.

(Ö) then you will relive again as fact but you then will have nothing at all to depend on in front of the creator and that is big deal then.
But religion is a conformed and fact not theory.
- A fact is something that actually exists, something we can prove to be true.
- Prove it to me I will live again. Prove it to me your religion is confirmed as a fact and that everything it claims is a fact as well.

Please understand to believe, if not you will not evolve from this step at all.
- If you had facts, as you said you did, I would not have to believe anything. I would just have to accept it just like the vast majority of people, no matter where they live and what their backgrounds are, accept that 2 plus 2 equals 4.

i donít care about them at all because i am not responsible for their right or wrong, they are all wrong for what i care, and i can confirm that for you later if you wish in another title in the form with the name of every "theory" you need to drop you time in later,
- So you donít know any of them?
- You already made claims concerning the universe. It is the time to disprove others. Not later. NOW.

And even the name ďtheory" means itís not conformed,
- Unlike your claims, a scientific theory is based on scientific facts.

I just care about Islam thatís what i can talk about and relay on,
- How convenient.

Iím am just need conformation about the initial force for the creation of the universe, not his details at all, no more no less .
- You talk about something without full knowledge concerning it. Thatís ignorant, dishonest and just simply wrong.
- Is this what your religion teaches? To be ignorant?

There is no scientific evidence on that at all;
otherwise you will see a whole lot of universeís pop up every ware.
- WHAT? How do you know there is no more space for other universes to pop up just next to ours (which is more probable than god/gods since we already can confirm one universe is a possibility)?
- And how would we be able to see that if we are just located in a little space of one of such universes?

I see you are here then he must be their too,
if not you will not be here in the 1st place.
Itís as simple as that.
- Yeah, very simple and very wrong. You see me and how you explain it proves you donít know why it is that you see me, yet you wonít admit it. You will say it is god which you canít prove to exist in the first place.
- So yeah, again ignorance and even arrogance on your side.

Let say i do say that i have reality to back this up, know that i am talking about the "universe itself" not "in" the universe there is a big difference..
- So what reality are you referring to to back this up with if not from within the universe? Do you know the reality from outside of it? Or from before it? Obviously not. How can you be so full of lies then?

I am not interested in the universe sorry..
- Yet, you can only use rules from within it so whatever.

"And applying the rules from within the universe to the outside of the universe doesnít seem to be okay."
good rule, will need it later..
- No, you need it now. You already made claims which violate it - read above

HOW CAN WE TALK ABOUT ANYTHING IF YOU THROW BASELESS ASSUMPTIONS FOR EVERY POINT YOU MAKE?
where??
- Everywhere, just read whatís above.

I gave you scenarios competing with yours
1- I'm not competing
2- any other "scenarios" is "wrong" mostly, but i have no time at all to talk about every failed thing
- You perhaps lack time. But what you lack for sure are counter-arguments.

3- Islam didn't mention all these "scenarios", therefor I donít care about their right or wrong at all.
- It seems Islam also failed to mention not to be ignorant towards other ideas which are as or more probable than what Islam has to offer.

i am not obligated to answer for anything i did not accept or believe in
- Of course, but the main reason you wonít is because you canít.


- You are the gambler here, I am just neutral and open-minded.
we all gambling here but :
- i am on paradise in the other life or what a am in it => they are all good
- and you are on hell in the other life or what you are in it => its a huge risk
Thatís only in your unprovable scenario. The chance for it to be true if divine power exists is so low your religion is senseless to be a part of. Case closed. You lost.

There is NO any other GOD unless they are all (or some of them) GODLESS like (so basically we can ignore them)
- Prove anything you just said is true. Otherwise they are just baseless beliefs so donít say GOD. Say GOD/GODS until then.
- Prove it to me your definition of god is valid or even necessary. Otherwise, you are most likely wrong about it.

i did say that clearly before, so please review it.
- You may say what you want. I may say I have wings and can fly

„Õ» «Š√„Š «Š√Õ„Ō
02-12-2016, 04:06 PM
- Then prove it to me the universe could not have been better created. Otherwise, itís either not a perfect god or gods, or not god or gods at all who are responsible for the universe.
If you donít see it then you donít deserve it ..
Itís not a matter of proving, the matter is in the appreciation of what you have...
And itís a matter of seeing the perfection around you, but donít even see it, so what do you need from me in your Handicapped!!
But will Ö
I will try any way not for you,
The prove is:
That you will not find any better in any way you look around, not even in your own body from the smallest tiny quantum to the biggest massive black hole of things around or even in you.

----
There is No gods to mention donít hallucinateÖ


- Prove it to me perfectness is possible to exist anywhere.
Thatís the Quran is existing already, are you blind of Muslims believes too-thatís why you have Islam now-?!!



- Btw, why did you repeat this claim 2 times, at the beginning and at the end of the post? You first tell me to be brief and then you break the rule yourself?
IN THE FUTURE DONíT SET RULES YOU WONíT KEEP.
Thatís for you only
The why is, because I am barley maintaining the conversation not as will as youÖ


you havenít proven
You always say that whatever I say, so why do I care about you?!!
There is a lot of proving writ there; itís not my concern that you donít see it.



- It is not about respect, I could respect your preferences if you agreed itís just about that. But you call it knowledge, which undergoes just the same criticism any other sorts of information would.
There are 2 things now:
1- The basic knowledge about the existence
2- The faith we build on it
So donít mix between the two of them.
We say:
There must be a creator => 1
We acknowledge him as a god => 2
There must be no other gods => 1, 2
And so on, etc.

And thatís normal when you talk to any religious person.
If you canít comprehend that simple thing, then just say so, where you got lost?

I did give you 1 fact and 1 believe
The fact is you are a creature.
And the believe is that you must not ignore the creator.
As simple as that.


I blow it off. This is how logic works.
That may be true if you are just a basic computer nothing more, so be it if you are like that.


Prove it to me I will live again.
Thatís simple:
You donít need to think a lot about it
All we say is:
What creates you 1st
Will create you 2nd
No more and no less.
If you acknowledge the 1st
You mainly cannot dismiss the 2nd

Prove it to me your religion is confirmed as a fact and that everything it claims is a fact as
The one and only fact as a base for any religion is their book, so you must go search "all at once" the facts in Quran and see if itís all true or false for that answer.

So try to have a good copy 1st with a fine -Muslim accepted it- translation to your language, so you can search all the facts by yourself one by one.



- Unlike your claims, a scientific theory is based on scientific facts.
So the faith is, you can call it theory for the time being until you have all proving you sought.


- You talk about something without full knowledge concerning it. Thatís ignorant, dishonest and just simply wrong.
- Is this what your religion teaches? To be ignorant?
Will, the problem is that in the religion you must have one that will be true and acceptable for all humans not only science people , so it basically shouldnít be have that much of details you are talking about by default .

You have a simple faith
Can be true for Adam and can be true for all other as will,

If the other have science as addition it must not colliding with if it is true, and that that.

The simple thing is that the god did not mention all the info he has but just the enough to believe in it no more Ėto not Exhaust Adam like people- and no less Ėto not interest the science people- that balance must be existed in all true religion.


- WHAT? How do you know there is no more space for other universes to pop up just next to ours (which is more probable than god/gods since we already can confirm one universe is a possibility)?
- And how would we be able to see that if we are just located in a little space of one of such universes?

I donít know; I just assumed and call all that as one universe to us no more, to talk to you "basically" with no overwhelming scientific details dos not concern me now as all other people, the important thing is our existence in it as a fact.
If you need detail scientifically Ėas advance- you can go to a science man for that not a religious form from the start any way.


it is god which you canít prove to exist in the first place
Here we are again, god to us are the first reason to you and whatever you think you live in.

And I am talking about 1 god here no more, if you see any one speak to you about more than 1 then go argue about that with him I am not concerned about it.



- So what reality are you referring to to back this up with if not from within the universe? Do you know the reality from outside of it? Or from before it? Obviously not. How can you be so full of lies then
I am just acknowledging the 1st reason form within my knowledge base I did not assume any other about whatís out of that yet in that step.

If you agree about that there, then we can resume with anther assumption on that, like 1 or many or any other assumption.


I gave you scenarios competing with yours
Then you can go argue with those who claim that if you want not me sorry Ėand us too with them but not with you-.
I stand only in what I believe in.
One step at a time.


- It seems Islam also failed to mention not to be ignorant towards other ideas which are as or more probable than what Islam has to offer.
You are not believer in all that to comprehend Islam answer to them.

So for now all I can say is, there is an answer and a good one too on that but it does not concern you.

And above all that I did mention the answer already, but youíre the one who is ignorance to even see it .

So itís not my problem for now.


The chance for it to be true if divine power exists is so low your religion is senseless to be a part of. Case closed. You lost.
We will see about that in the afterlife keep dreaming, if I would like to get you a replay I would say: even you say itís a chance Ėlow or not- I donít care I succeeded in what I need thanks.


Prove Prove Prove
say it as much as you want
it changes nothing

- Otherwise, you are most likely wrong about it.
most likely then
I am good with it as probable no matter how low
go for it

sorry but i think i can not continue beyond that limit with you
i am not qualified in English with you that much so sorry.