I am a bit confused about how this works... because I can not read arabic...... So this message is just a test....
عرض للطباعة
I am a bit confused about how this works... because I can not read arabic...... So this message is just a test....
إخوانى الموحدين
الاخ الذى دعاه لمنتدى التوحيد هل من الممكن ان يترجم له وللأخوة ..حتى يتمكن الاخوة من الحوار معه
ok charlie welcome to here .
we hope to u stay a good time with us
frist of all
why you choice the atheist as a religion ????
يقول الزميل انا مرتبك قليلا عن كيفية عمل هذا ....لانني لا اسنطيع قراءة العربية .......لذا هذه الرسالة هي فقط تجربةاقتباس:
i am a bit confused about how this works... Because i can not read arabic...... So this message is just a test
min bror Charlie ; vنlkommen till vهr webbplats .
om du har nهgon frهga, bara stنlla den. men du inte fِrbanna eller fِrolنmpa dem
och tack
fred ce pه dig
Hi Charlie1965
You are welcome in this forum
it is easy to use it do not worry
May Allah guide you to his right path
Hello guys, Thanks for let me talk here. Actually my friend Abdellah wanted me to join this forum, because he has problems convincing me about God. I am actually not here to find God. I am 100% sure he does not exist. Why I am here is to find out how it is possible that people still believe in gods in 21st century. I think I know some of the reasons, but i want to find out more. One reason is that we humans tent to believe in what is most pleasant for us. This is why people in war can hardly see their own side doing bad things. The enemy is always the bad side, and our own side is the good side. Another reason is that we usually accept things that our parents teach us. It is very difficult to accept that your own parents teach you something that is not correct. And religion is such a big question. It is a view at the life. It is very difficult to accept that our point at life, thought by our own parents is wrong. A third reason is that religion gives us hope for next life.... It is a very pleasant though, but very far from the truth. I think I can continue with more reasons, but I will finish here. I hope you will help me to find out more in this very intresting subject :-) Best regards, from Charlie
:-)#
Hello again. Someone whos name I can not read (because it is in Arabic) aked me why did I choose to be Atheist. Well, it is not a choice I made. I have realized that there can impossibly be any god out there.. It is not something I believe. It is somethng I am very convinced about and I hope you will understand me too some day. Best regards from Charlie :-).
أهلا أيها الرجال
أشكركم لسماحكم لي المشاركة هنا. في الحقيقة زميلي عبد الله أرادني أن التحق بهذا المنتدى لأنه وجد مشاكل في اقناعي بوجود الله.وأنا متأكد 100 ٪ انه لا وجود له. أنا هنا فقط لمعرفة كيف أنه من الممكن أن الناس ما زالوا يؤمنون بالآلهة في القرن 21. أعتقد أنني أعرف بعض الأسباب ، ولكن أريد معرفة المزيد.. إحدى الأسباب هو أن البشر يميلون للإيمان بما هوجميل لنا. هذا هو السبب الذي يجعل الناس في الحرب من الصعب أن ترى الجانب السيء من جهتها. العدو دائما هو الجانب السيئ ، و الذي بجانبنا هو الجيد. وهناك سبب آخر هو أننا عادة ما نقبل الأشياء التي يعلمها أباؤنا لنا. من الصعب جدا أن نقبل بأن والديك يمكن أن يعلماك شيئا غير صحيح. و الدين هو مثل هذا السؤال الكبير. هو نظرة في الحياة. من الصعب جدا أن تقبل وجهة نظر في الحياة تعلمناها من قبل والدينا تكون خاطئة. . والسبب الثالث هو أن الدين يعطينا الأمل في الحياة القادمة....و رعم أنه شيء جميل ، إلا أنه بعيد جدا عن الحقيقة. أعتقد أنني يمكن أن أستمرفي المزيد من الأسباب ، ولكنني سأتوقف هنا. أرجو أن تساعدوني في معرفة المزيد في هذا الموضوع المهم جدا
مع أطيب التحيات ،
من تشارلي
Hello Charlie
You know it's too late now, perhaps by tomorrow scholars on this forum might answer you.
As you can notice I've interpreted your contribution to help scholars who might find it difficult to understand English.
My regards
so charlie you are convinced that theres no god, so as you know how all form of life did come in earth (simple question), by evolution, evolution can not explain how the first cell come with silly thing like coincidense and randoomness, and with that proof we can not believe in evolution, not because i am muslim, but every every basic and every true science denied tha fact that randdomness can make something, and i just one task for you, think a llitle can randoom mutation do something??? best regard,
N.B. : sorry for my bad bad english but i think you well inderstand a little
well chucky ; we just ask you not to be a close minded ;
no body is 100% sure about his beliefs . when we will have a debat with you and you will be wrong about something; please just admit it and don't Bypass around the main subject or being a sophist , because we know all the games they play
finally; i just hope that you 're a truth seeker and you participate to learn not for Participation itself
so , as you say AV OCH SES SENARE
Hälsningar
هذه ترجمة لما كتبه الاخ احمد فتحي الموحد
إذن يا شارلي أنت مقتنع انه لا وجود لإله, إذن كما تعلم كيف ظهرت الحياة على الأرض؟ ( سؤال بسيط), عن طريق التطور! لا يمكن البتت للتطور ان يفسر ان خلية جاءت عن طريق الصدفة, وبهذا لا يمكننا ان نؤمن بالتطور, ليس لانني مسلم, ولكن كل منطق وكل وعلم حقيقي ونزيه يضحض نطرية ان تأتي الصدفة بشيء , وهذا سؤال اريدك ان تفكر فيه, هل يمكن للصدفة العمياء ان تخلق شيئا؟؟؟ مع اطيب التمنيات
ترجمة ما كتبه الاخ light
حسنا يا تشارلي, نحن نريد منك فقط الا تكول مغلق العقل
لا احد متأكد مائة بالمائة حول اعتقاده. عندما نناقش معك ستجد نفسك مخطئا حول بعض الأشياء, الرجاء ان تعترف بالحقيقة والا تخرج عن الموضوع او تكون سوفسطائيا, لاننا نعرف الاعيبهم
اخيرا, اتمنى ان تكون باحثا عن الحقيقة وان تشارك معنا لتتعلم وليس فقط ان تشارك من أجل المشاركة
اذن كما تقولون في وقت لاحق
تحياتي
Welcome Charlie
I hope you would enjoy your stay here
you said
What is your evidence Charlieاقتباس:
I am actually not here to find God. I am 100% sure he does not exist.
I mean by evidence a set of ideas driven based on bare logic
You mentioned something very interesting here which worth to mention
Well this is actually a problem that most people get trapped in, We call it the paradigm that people get imprisoned in. Actually this is totally aganist our religion. This doesn't mean that muslims don't do the same. Muslims are like others they are human beigns and they have desires. But the guidance ( The Quran and Sunnah) guides us and it is mentioned explicitly in the quran that this is the caseاقتباس:
Another reason is that we usually accept things that our parents teach us. It is very difficult to accept that your own parents teach you something that is not correct.
And when it is said unto them: Come unto that which Allah hath revealed and unto the messenger, they say: Enough for us is that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers had no knowledge whatsoever, and no guidance?
Almaeda 104
And even so We sent not a warner before thee (Muhammad) into any township but its luxurious ones said: Lo! we found our fathers following a religion, and we are following their footprints.
Alzukhruf 23
#
So as you can see the Quran blames people for just closing their minds and say we will follow what my parents followed
P.S My name in English is Ibn Alsunnah
Best Regards
I will put verses of the Holy Quran in the Swedish language to be more clear for our friend Charlie
And when it is said unto them: Come unto that which Allah hath revealed and unto the messenger, they say: Enough for us is that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers had no knowledge whatsoever, and no guidance?
Almaeda 104
När de uppmanas, "Kom till det som Allah har uppenbarat och till budbäraren," säger de, "Det vi såg våra föräldrar göra räcker för oss." Tänk om deras föräldrar inte visste någonting och inte var vägledda?
Almaeda 104
And even so We sent not a warner before thee (Muhammad) into any township but its luxurious ones said: Lo! we found our fathers following a religion, and we are following their footprints.
Alzukhruf 23
Alltid när vi skickade en varnare till ett samhälle, sa ledarna av det samhället, "Vi såg våra föräldrar följa vissa seder, och vi kommer att fortsätta i deras fotspår."
Alzukhruf 23
here is the translation of the meanings of the holy Quran in Swedish language:
http://se.quran.nu
so you blaim us that we follow our parents like you said, ok, that's true we have followed our parents till a moments when we have the basics and the necessary knowledge to make the decision, between creatism and evolution,
creatism: is a supranatural and very intelligent power has make the life in this world.
evolution: known as (darwinism) RANDOOM and COINCIDENCE make the all form of living thing in earth,
so as you can see, nobody has the good judgement can believe on somthing like coincidense as the creator of all matters.....
شكرا darc علي الترجمة ..
أستمر:emrose::emrose:
مرحبا تشارلي اتمنى ان تقضيا وقتا ممتعا هنا
يقول تشارلي
انا لست في هذا المنتدى لابحث عن الله لانني متأكد 100 بالمائة انه غير موجود
ما هو دليلك يا تشارلي
لا اعني الادلة التي ليست مؤسسة على منطق صحيح
ذكرت هنا شيئا مهما وجذيرا بالذكر
يقول تشارلي
السبب الاخر هو اننا عادة ما نتبع الدين الذي علمنا إياه ابائنا.انه لصعب جدا ان تقبل من والديك ما يعلمانه اياك مما هو خاطئ
حسنا في الحقيقة هذا مشكل لا يعرف الكثير من الناس انهم وقعوا في شركه, نحن نسميه النموذج او
المثال الأعلى الذي يجعل الناس يتبعونه ويكونون محبوسون له . في الواقع هذا ضد ديننا. ولكن هذا لا يعني ان المسلمين لا يعملون نفس الشيء. المسلمون مثل غيرهم من البشر لديهم شهوات ورغبات. لكن القران والسنة يرشدوننا الى الحق
وفي القران ذكر الله مسألة اتباع دين الاباء
يقول الله تعالى في سورة المائدة:
وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْاْ إِلَى مَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَإِلَى الرَّسُولِ قَالُواْ حَسْبُنَا مَا وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهِ آبَاءنَا أَوَلَوْ كَانَ آبَاؤُهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ شَيْئًا وَلاَ يَهْتَدُونَ (١٠٤)
وفي سورة الزخرف
وَكَذَلِكَ مَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ فِي قَرْيَةٍ مِّن نَّذِيرٍ إِلَّا قَالَ مُتْرَفُوهَا إِنَّا وَجَدْنَا آبَاءنَا عَلَى أُمَّةٍ وَإِنَّا عَلَى آثَارِهِم مُّقْتَدُونَ (٢٣)
من خلال الايات يتبين لك ان القران يلوم الناس الذين يغلقون عقولهم ويقولون بأننا سوف نتبع ملة ابائنا
تحياتي
اذن انت الان تلومنا لاننا نتبع ابائنا, حسنا هذا صحيح نحن نتبعهم الى ان نبلغ ونكون ناضجين ونملك المعرفة ثم بعد ذلك نتخذ قرارنا اما مع الخلق او مع التطور
الخلق: قوة خارقة فوق الطبيعة هي سبب وجود الحياة على ظهر المعمورة
التطور: المعروف بالداروينية حيث ان الصدفة العمياء هي التي سببت بوجود الحياة على الارض
so as you can see, nobody has the good judgement can believe on somthing like coincidense as the creator of all matters
hello charlie
u said
I am 100% sure he does not exist
this is wrong??why
because you there is nothing we are sure that 100%
even the evolution theory we aren't sure thats true
u said
Why I am here is to find out how it is possible that people still believe in gods in 21st century
yes you are right , maybe in 31st century , we will say how it is possible that people still believe in love or mercy ............etc
u said
Hello again. Someone whos name I can not read (because it is in Arabic) aked me why did I choose to be Atheist
this is me . my name is ashbely from yemen
u said
it is not a choice I made
u mean the atheist is a truth !!!
let me talk like u : i will say the religion is not a choice it is a truth way
ok
do u believe in soul ??????
with my best regards from ur friend ashbely
:emrose:
Hi again guys,
Thanks for your comments. I am just sorry I can not read some of the messages, because they are in Arab language.
However, let me reply at the questions I could understand.
For the first it is true that science can not give answer on every question about life and the universe itself. But religion can definitively not do it.
I will have a chance to develop this more later but I try to concentrate now at the questions I got already. About evolution. Evolution does not work with complete random. Random changes that appear at the existing species work in all directions and not all the changes are good for the species. Actually almost all mutations are not good. Those will not survive. To make a simple example let us talk about a bird that will have a very big mutation (in reality mutations are almost always a lot smaller) Let us say a bird has a genetic error and it get a third wing! This is a huge mistake. If this bird would get chicks, it is very likely that some of them will get a third wing too, because the error is in the genes. But how likely is that this bird will get chicks? For the first, it would have problems flying and would most likely very soon be taken by a hawk or some other animal, before it gets adult. If it despite all would survive and become adult, how would the chances be to get the chicks? Probably it would be almost impossible, cause such bird would not be attractive to the other sex. Usually such bird would be mobbed out and never get a partner. It's modified genes would never get to the next generation. It's third wing would definitively not benefit this poor bird.#
Now lets look and another, more positive example. Another bird is being born with some modified gene that makes its wings slightly longer. Nothing very dramatic, but still a bit longer. Let us say this bird is an eagle, that is migrating by winter. It is using the thermal winds (winds that are blowing upwards when the ground is being heated by sun and which many big birds use when migrating). What would this mean to this bird? It would be able to soar a little bit higher and migrate a little bit faster because of this. It would reach the wintering area a bit faster than the other birds. It would spend shorter time and the dangerous migration. In the spring time when moving back to the breeding area, it would probably return back some day before the other birds of the same species. This would give it a chance to get a better nesting area with more food. Lets, say our eagle is a male. With a good area he would easily get a female. It's longer wings would not bother the female. The eagle still looks very normal. He would probably have a successful nesting and it's genes would be copied to the next generation., which will very likely have longer wings too, if they get their fathers genes, that shows to be good. After some generations, more and more birds will have longer wing. The species is changing a little. But why are eagles that are migrating not getting longer and longer wings than, if it is for their benefit? Well, the reality is more complicated than our little example. Long wings are maybe good for a long migration, but maybe not so good when hunting. Specially if a bird is hunting in the forest. So, in real world it is not sure that our eagle male would be so successful. He would maybe get a better area for nesting because he was there before the others, but he would maybe not be so good hunter and therefore not so successful in raising his chicks.
However, those two examples show how evolution works. This is not a silly thing. Evolution is real and it goes on all the time, even today. It is not even very hard to understand. It takes time, but it had time for billions of years and that is why it came so far.
The "engine" for the evolution is natural selection. There IS randomness in evolution, but only the mutations that are good for survive will survive in the long run. Sorry I wrote a long mail, but I tried my best to give a straight answer to the questions about evolution being "silly".
Best regard from Charlie :-)#
Hi Ashbely,
Thanks for your comments. Well let me reply back.
You say nothing is 100% for sure? If I ask you how sure are you that the earth is a globe? Maybe you can not be 100% sure, but something like... let's say 99,999999% Maybe everyone is lying to you, while the world is in fact flat. Not very likely, but not completely impossible. To not use decimals you would say 100% sure. In the case of God I am more sure than that, but I choose to say 100%. Why so sure? Because the .
whole story is completely unbelievable, but we will have chance to talk more about it later.
#We will not be alive at the 31st century to see if there are still religions at that time. I doubt actually. I think humans have either destroyed themselves, or they have learned a lot more about life. I don't think there would be place for religion more than as something interesting that people used in the past to explain the world, since their knowledge was so low.
Best regards from Charlie :-)
Forgot to answer to the question if believe in a soul. Well, if a soul is or mind that will live on after we die, than no. I don't believe in it.
Darc, I almost forgot your message. Well, you do admit that you follow your parents. So do maybe 99% of the Christians and so do maybe 99% of the Buddhist, or any other religion. If you were born as a Buddhist you would almost for sure be a Buddhist and you would believe you are right. If you were open minded, and open for knowledge, than you would study Buddism too and the Bible and also Biological explanation, that means Evolution. That would give you a real chance to make a good decision. Well, you can always ask me beck, if I did the same thing? Well, I did not read Quran and did not read Bible either, although my mother sent me to a religious Christian "Sunday school" to learn about God when I was a kid. I am though reading about religions, even by Islam. But today I am adult enough to understand some things and there is no place for any religious believes in my world. If you really want to know the truth, than you will see I am right. Life did not appear just by sayng "Let there be life". You will see I am right, but ok... give it some time. Best regards from Charlie :-).
[QUOTE=Charlie1965;181543]Hi again guys,
.اقتباس:
. I am just sorry I can not read some of the messages, because they are in Arab language
Hey Charlie, the Arabic messages you see here are only the traslation of what is written in English it is not a new messages
i just translate what is written here to be understood by those who do not understand English
Enjoy staying here
Dear Charlie
I will leave the discussion about Evolution to brothers who are more specialized in the area and there are a few here. I also hope that they would find your message and reply
I just want to introduce the islamic point of view of information
First there is the absolute truth or the fact
For example. I exist ; this is a fact if I deny it then there is no need to proceed further.
Then we have what is probably true.
For example this is the case of most scientific theories
The first principle is
TWO FACTS cannot contradict
The second principle is that WHAT IS most probable if it APPARENTLY contradicts a fact we have to accept the fact and interpret what is most probably true in its light.
If we can then this is fine
If we can't we will just say that the probably true statement is not correct
If the probably true statement is all what we have we will accept it until either it is proven to be a fact or reject it if it was proven to be incorrect
We don't reject what is APPARENTLY true unless it contradicts a A FACT
The Third principle is when we have two probably true statements
Well here we have to think more and may be it would be hard to say which one to accept.
I believe this is very important before going into real discussions
Do you accept this methodology
I see no problem in this way of discussing things. The first statement could even be depicted in a way an ancient Greek philosopher said: "I think.... that means I exist"
. :-)#
I advise you this link
http://www.alheweny.org/english/
Evolution is very logical and not difficult to understand. You don't need to be an expert . Just listen to your biology teacher. To make it easier to understand, i will use some facts that are not controversial at all.: 1 Our bodies (and all living creatures) are built up by cells. 2 The cells contain DNA molecules that build up our genes. 3 Genes are unique for every living creature (exception are twins that grew from the same egg of the female) 4. The genes we get depend on what genes our parents had, but we will never get exactly the same genes as out parent. 5 Different gens means we are not same and we can impossibly be equally adapted to life. Some our better at running, some better at thinking, some better at something else.
These differences is what evolution work with. It is maybe not important if we have curly or straight hair, but in a world where an animal needs to hunt to get food and flee to not be eaten, it is very important to be smart, or if not smart than be able to run very fast. This is what evolution works with. Natural selection is not something that a god is choosing. Simply, the best ones survive and spread their genes to the next generation. It is very logical and it is not difficult to understand at all. Best regards: Charlie :-)
the noble quran
http://www.alazhr.com/okdown1/en_quran.pdf
Dear Charlie
Yes I guess most people here understand Evolution and its mechanisms
Mutation and Natural Selection
But I am still not an expert, it is not my field of research. So thats why I said that I prefer that some of the brothers here who are specialized in biology would discuss it with you
Because If I discussed it with you I may not be very precise in the terminology
Lets separate between that it is easy and that it actually happened
Well since you agreed with us about the methodology I mentioned, then we can move and discuss something much more basic than evolution and how life started on earth
Lets start by discussing how this all began.
I hope that people with the knowledge here would join us :):
I checked the site a little. But I am more interested to know what is the text at the picture of Rome. Could you translate to me? Also the text at the flags, please....
#
Ok..... You tell me... How did it all start? What do you think? Someone said let is start? I don't think so... :-)
Dear Charlie,
Please visit this link: http://www.jaafaridris.com/English/Books.htm
and read some of the articles there
I recommend this:
The Contemporary Physicists and God's Existence
The Attributes of God, an Islamic point of view
http://www.jaafaridris.com/English/Articles/creator.htm
The author has a complete book about physics and the existence of God, However it is in Arabic
The first article is just a very rough summary of the book
After reading the articles , you would have an idea of how we think
At least you would understand our point of view and why do we believe in a Creator in the 21th century
:):
Dear....ehm.... Mr...
I have lots of links to send to you too. It is very boring to chat by sending links. If you need support by other writers, than maybe I am not the right person to chat with. I prefer an open debate where we both need to think and make up our own questions and answers. That is developing. Funny I often get links when I try to chat with Muslims. Why? Are you guys not feeling sure in yourself to run an own debate and tell me your own opinion? Why always asking for supports by websites? Best regards from Charlie
so charlie how can we descuss something that collapse from the first step: the formation of the first cell (amyba) the evolution theory is a dead doctrine, She appeared in a period when science was still under-developed when the cell is shown under the primary microscope like asimple bubble, but when science has developed we discoverer a lot of intersting things, the cell was considered as a big spacial ship, with millions of particles that are working with a very miraculous armony, and you try to convice us that the evolution is the explication of all this!! you have to pursue the last experience
read this:
Morowitz’s probability calculation
The probability calculations cited above are in agreement with a calculation by the biophysicist Harold Morowitz. He assumed he had broken all the chemical bonds in the E. coli bacterium and released all the atoms comprising it, and then calculated the probability of these atoms spontaneously recombining to give rise to the E. coli once again. In this theoretical experiment, all the atoms required are present in all the appropriate quantities, and it is assumed that no other atom can become involved from the outside. Nonetheless, he calculated that the chances of all the atoms coming together spontaneously in a specific order, despite their being in the appropriate numbers and in an appropriate environment, in such a way as to produce an E. coli bacterium was 1 in 10100,000,000,000.[3]This goes far beyond being merely impossible. Such a number reveals the impossibility of even the least complex organism in the universe forming by chance, even if all the conditions and materials are brought together. ,
by the way sorry for not presented myself iam ahhmed fathy mouwahhid
Charlie , I requested from you to read the links because I wanted to build a common ground for both of us.
In my opinion this would reduce the time of discussions.
If you don't like that ok lets start
What is the cause of the universe? I mean how did it come to exist?
I say: A creator since this is the only logical solution
All possible soutions are:
1- It is everlasting and eternal
2- It was found from nothing
3- It was found by a cause
Do you have any other opinion?