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  1. #346
    تاريخ التسجيل
    May 2010
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    Sweden
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    المذهب أو العقيدة
    ملحد

    افتراضي

    Here are your claims:
    1. God has to be perfect.
    2. A perfect god would make it impossible for other gods to coexist.
    3. More gods would struggle on the basis of which one is better/perfect or which one should be the leader.
    YOUR STATEMENTS MAKE NO SENSE. PROVE ANY OF THOSE, OTHERWISE YOU ARE JUST MAKING STUFF UP.
    And how do you know gods don’t struggle? This universe could just be a work of some of them, it is also not a perfect world so it doesn’t require perfect creators (I actually gave you an argument based on a fact here). They might be above us but don’t have to be perfect.
    What you know are baseless beliefs, so this can’t be called knowledge. And I repeat myself because you don’t realize it. You are too limited to your scriptures to see other possibilities which are as probable in this hypothetical talk we are having. By introducing such arguments, you really make it feel more and more your religion is man-made. Don’t you have anything better? Just take a look at your logic:
    There is only one god (baseless belief) because god has to be perfect (baseless belief), and because more gods would struggle (baseless belief; also there is a probability actually have struggled which is independent from your perception).
    A belief supporting a belief supporting a belief - do you know what this is called? Circular logic = fallacy.
    DON'T EVER MENTION ANYTHING FROM THE QURAN UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE IT WORKS.

    Cheers.

  2. #347
    تاريخ التسجيل
    May 2010
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    المذهب أو العقيدة
    ملحد

    افتراضي

    I forgot to mention:
    In many pagan beliefs gods actually fought against each other and some of those fights had impacts on humans.

  3. افتراضي

    Here are your claims:
    it's not for just me at all
    YOUR STATEMENTS MAKE NO SENSE. PROVE ANY OF THOSE, OTHERWISE YOU ARE JUST MAKING STUFF UP.
    this is our believe no more what evidence you need in that? !!

    This is your perspective on this issue
    And it has exist difference that we see between the God we worship as our Lord and the rest of the other names that launched human beings on the other

    I can give you evidence of our texts legitimacy of this is that if you want,, but this is the only conclusion

    And how do you know gods don’t struggle?
    God is the one who puts the laws of the universe
    Such as gravity and other
    If it finds any defect in it then probably we know that there are more than God
    But we find such norms are going in all the universe, such as the knife is not hampered by any obstacle
    it is also not a perfect world
    This Profile your perspective as a man,, because you say about what you do not know it randomly,, but for God,, every stone or atom placed in the right location, which he wants from the beginning.
    They might be above us but don’t have to be perfect
    Versa of controls in such a universe must be complete ..

    I do not speak again by default at all,, I explain to you my faith,, which "is not subject to discussion," and you receive Him or reject it as you want for yourself later ..
    do you know what this is called? Circular logic
    I do not see any circular on the subject
    I find it just a logical hierarchy
    You get lost with yourself from the questions do not relate to what I'm saying to you
    DON'T EVER MENTION ANYTHING FROM THE QURAN UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE IT WORKS.
    القرآن هو الدليل الذي تطلبه ،، ان لم تستطع التعامل مع كونه موجودا بين الحين والآخر ،، فلا تطالبني به .
    Quran is the evidence that you require,, if you can not deal with being located between now and then,, Do not ask me to do.
    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
    <وَالسَّمَاءَ رَفَعَهَا وَوَضَعَ الْمِيزَانَ (7) أَلَّا تَطْغَوْا فِي الْمِيزَانِ (8) وَأَقِيمُوا الْوَزْنَ بِالْقِسْطِ وَلَا تُخْسِرُوا الْمِيزَانَ (9)>
    سورة الرحمن

    أحمد .. مسلم

  4. افتراضي

    I apologize that was a few sentences meaning is not clear to you,,
    I was hasty Only then,,
    If it is not clear the meaning of any statement Tell me about them, for the sake of re-revised, for you, God willing ..
    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
    <وَالسَّمَاءَ رَفَعَهَا وَوَضَعَ الْمِيزَانَ (7) أَلَّا تَطْغَوْا فِي الْمِيزَانِ (8) وَأَقِيمُوا الْوَزْنَ بِالْقِسْطِ وَلَا تُخْسِرُوا الْمِيزَانَ (9)>
    سورة الرحمن

    أحمد .. مسلم

  5. #350

    افتراضي

    This universe could just be a work of some of them, it is also not a perfect world so it doesn’t require perfect creators (I actually gave you an argument based on a fact here).
    well, that made my day.
    If we came to the conclusion that God exist, the logic is to believe in one God by default unless someone can prove there are multiple Gods. No need to pre-complicating the solution.

    BTW, you have presented zero facts, not sure what you meant by your line over there.The world is not perfect? Ok, but please define "perfect world" if you can... NO ONE can do. However, the Quran did describe perfect world and named it heaven... reaching it is the purpose of Islam.

    However, you made a wrong assumption which is the creator does not need to be perfect. No facts or anything to support that besides "My world sucks, that means the one who created is not perfect" or whatever baseless beliefs. God can never be anything but perfect and flawless... so even arguing about god/gods that are not perfect (like you did) is just wrong.

    Why is that? I can give some answers like if the creator is not perfect, meaning that he makes mistakes just like any non-perfect thing... Then, where do you find ANY mistake like that in the universe?! No one can see any mistake.

    Now, you said "the world" is not perfect... the world is ruled and inhibited by us humans... and we are sinful creatures by default just like God himself told us. And the only way we can be better than that sinful nature is to follow his commands.

    If you look to Islamic (or religious) teachings, all of them are for morality and rules to define our life... this is a whole different topic so I will not start it here.

    Finally, I hope you reach the truth one day because all humans have the right to be in God's heaven.
    Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan
    I am the cult of personality


  6. #351
    تاريخ التسجيل
    May 2010
    الدولة
    Sweden
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    المذهب أو العقيدة
    ملحد

    افتراضي

    If you make a conclusion that one god exists, then it is logical for you to believe there is one god, obviously.
    But if you simply state that the universe is a result of some divine power, this power could be from one as well as from many entities.
    if you know that one god is a possibility, then more of them would not be a problem either (just like the universe of ours raises suggestions that more universes are possible). Secondly, gods could create gods.
    The only arguments you have against that are: A. God is perfect. B. 1 god is a simpler and less complicated answer that more gods. So you accused me of overcomplicating things and then you just added a problematic feature which is totally unproven to exist at all - perfectness. Just because my world sucks surely doesn’t mean god is not perfect, but it also doesn’t mean he is perfect. And it is your responsibility to prove he is, which you can’t possibly do.
    And yes, this world is not perfect, just because it somehow works doesn’t mean anything. We are not talking about things working. We are talking about perfectness. A perfect thing can not become a subject of further improvements. And this universe obviously can. There are lots of things which don’t work well in it or could work better. Even DNA has flaws. You chose the laws of physics as an example - well perhaps gods can’t violate those. Or those laws are temporary - after all we don’t know about the laws of physics from before the universe. Plus those laws don’t work in a perfect way, unless you can prove they couldn’t be better.
    And then you added another argument - that god created us flawed for a purpose - this seems like adding another unnecessary element/argument overcomplicating the story. And it is again without evidence.

    And of course, I have presented zero facts, just some propositions on the way. But so did you. And this was my aim from the beginning of this particular topic, to point out that MONOTHEISM IS AS CREDIBLE AND LOGICAL AS POLYTHEISM.
    And you even supported that:
    this is our believe no more what evidence you need in that? !!

    And any statement from the Quran undergoes the same evaluation statements from outside of it would. So it doesn’t really matter whether it talks about god, perfectness and heaven, as long as those claims can not be verified.
    Also:
    I do not see any circular on the subject
    - Circular logic is when you use faith based claims to support faith based claims. And this is what you did. You may find that logical but it is really irrelevant. There can be no more gods than one (not a fact) because god has to be perfect (not a fact) and because perfectness rejects many gods (again not a fact).

    If you look to Islamic (or religious) teachings, all of them are for morality and rules to define our life... this is a whole different topic so I will not start it here.
    I will gladly discuss MORALITY now unless you want to continue with polytheism.

  7. #352
    تاريخ التسجيل
    Oct 2014
    الدولة
    ليبيا
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    1,105
    المذهب أو العقيدة
    مسلم

    افتراضي

    الى اين وصل الحوار ؟
    الترجمة انقطعت

  8. #353

    افتراضي

    we don’t know about the laws of physics from before the universe
    that is a BIG mistake! I don't know how you actually said that! Physics is a part of nature, and nature itself didn't exist before the big bang. How come there was some part of nature before it even existed?! No credible scientist say that nature was there before the big bang... nature itself and everything was inside the singularity... so your line is objectivly scientifically wrong.

    If you make a conclusion that one god exists, then it is logical for you to believe there is one god, obviously.
    But if you simply state that the universe is a result of some divine power, this power could be from one as well as from many entities
    That is my way which is the correct one... you first have to prove the existance of god then talk about his properties. However, you seem to contradict yourself after that... Devine power = God, there is not devine power with humans or any other forms of life. so devine power is the God himself... then I follow what you have stated about believing in one God.

    First we believe in one God then if someone say there are 3 gods, he has to prove it since there is no need for such assumption. And, multiple gods means that there are weak gods and powerful gods... so who is the creator? if 2 of them had differences, who should we follow? If you followed the command of god1 and me god2... we both can rest in hell because we disobeyed the other god!! but wait.. who owns hell?! who controlls heaven or have the authority?

    ^ that is just very simple compelxity being added for no purpose at all, thus one god is much more simpler and more reasonable that multiple gods

    The only arguments you have against that are: A. God is perfect. B. 1 god is a simpler and less complicated answer that more gods. So you accused me of overcomplicating things and then you just added a problematic feature which is totally unproven to exist at all - perfectness. Just because my world sucks surely doesn’t mean god is not perfect, but it also doesn’t mean he is perfect.
    I will continue later on... I have no time now... please wait xD
    Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan
    I am the cult of personality


  9. #354

    افتراضي

    continuing on

    The only arguments you have against that are: A. God is perfect. B. 1 god is a simpler and less complicated answer that more gods. So you accused me of overcomplicating things and then you just added a problematic feature which is totally unproven to exist at all - perfectness. Just because my world sucks surely doesn’t mean god is not perfect, but it also doesn’t mean he is perfect
    so you say the following: 1- god is not perfect or no need to be so. 2- multiple gods are simple and not complex thus reasonable.
    ^
    this is baseless belief at its best. your response against me was simple unproven unreasonable assuptions... while I stated at least more reason in my lines. I didn't add a problematic feature at all... without this feature in god, he is not god at all. god or the first cause of the universe is omnipower and has the absolute knowledge and lacks nothing.

    your speech at the universe is wrong too.. why? because it is subjective to you. another man would say: "sun is not pure white, rather has some yellow in its light... thus it is imperfect... perfect sun is purely white sun" << and this continues forever.

    When you look at the fine-tunning of the universe, you know the intelligence behind it. ALL the constants were callibrated to allow life to begin... this can never be due to chance or whatever atheists say these days. life permitting callibration is so low that if one constant got changed by very tiny amount, life would not exist at all!!!

    Sure you can say that perfect universe must permit life more than that tiny gap... but, again, god did not want to create a universe that is 100% good for life to exist. And if life can exist in say 70% of it which is a huge amount, I am SURE atheists will say "what about the 30%? if god exists he must have allowed life to exist 100% in the universe not just 70%" and that nonsense will keep going nonstop.

    actually, the word "perfect" is used by us due to our own subjective understanding of things.. so it is improper to call god "perfect" using our standards and understanding...

    And then you added another argument - that god created us flawed for a purpose - this seems like adding another unnecessary element/argument overcomplicating the story. And it is again without evidence
    maybe you understood me wrong here, I didn't mean "flawed" but rather "sinful". no evidence? people today refuse god and most humanity today are not muslims (because islam is god's only way) and the ugly stuff they do like homosexuality, terrorism, inslaving mankind (like america does), racism.... etc. you must be new to our world if you don't recognize this. absolutely.

    if you look at the quran you find these facts very well documented and explained! and god always urges us to follow his commands and never revert to our sinful nature... this is to see the actual effect of believing in god and what it does to that sinful creature!

    I maybe went harsher against you, but I really hope you open your mind more than that because I saw you affected by new atheism propaganda and arguing methodology which cares about bringing as much objections as there is without really thinking much on the other side.

    I end up with 2 funny questions for you, please answer them:

    1- If I told you I am a Super Saiyan God, would you believe it? why? is it possible? scientifically possible?
    2- If a tiger killed a kid and ate it, is it a good thing or a bad thing? why? is it a sin? what if a human did the exact same thing... your answers to that?

    regards,

    Saiyan prince
    Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan
    I am the cult of personality


  10. #355
    تاريخ التسجيل
    May 2010
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    المذهب أو العقيدة
    ملحد

    افتراضي

    Actually it is objective to say we don’t know about the situation from before the universe emerged. So it is also unclear when it comes to the laws of physics. And the people who wouldn’t say laws of physics existed before the universe, are often the same people who wouldn’t say the universe was intelligently designed. So you take their word in one case, when it is comfortable to you, and avoid it when it’s not. How convenient.
    Here are other arguments concerning laws of nature:
    - they may actually depend on what gets created, being a natural consequence of things existing and things having particular properties as well as of interactions between those things - then it would depend on gods which rules would be applied,
    - they may work this and not that way since it would be logically impossible for them to work another way - totally independently from any gods. Unless gods could violate logic, which I wouldn’t say could happen.

    And yes, you have to prove the existence of many gods as well as of one god and you have to prove the qualities of that god or those gods. But you fail to do it which makes many gods as possible as one. Divine power may equal both one god or more.

    who owns hell?! who controlls heaven or have the authority?
    - Who says there are any of such places?
    - Usually the stronger hold authority.
    - It is likely that you should follow no god since, as I stated above, it seems risky to try to make contact with any.
    - This question of yours is totally irrelevant as it comes from the unprovable doctrines you are taught which have nothing to do with logic.

    Purpose and complexity don’t have to come from one god. One god would only be reasonable if you could prove it, but you can’t.

    so you say the following: 1- god is not perfect or no need to be so. 2- multiple gods are simple and not complex thus reasonable.
    Yes, no need and no evidence for perfectness to be even necessary. Plus many gods may be complex and reasonable to a degree, still not reaching perfectness.

    You are saying that perfection is not problematic while more gods would be. But it is, since you can’t even prove perfection was ever possible in the first place. Also one father god (like in many pagan religions) could be responsible for other gods, and those gods could be responsible for this universe. That father god would have little to do with us then.
    You are saying that without perfectness god is not god. Well, that is only according to your definition of god, but you can’t prove it is correct so it is a matter of believing - circular logic again.
    A god or gods, even if they were responsible for the universe, wouldn’t have to know everything. They would just need to know PERHAPS how to create universes.


    your speech at the universe is wrong too.. why? because it is subjective to you. another man would say: "sun is not pure white, rather has some yellow in its light... thus it is imperfect... perfect sun is purely white sun" << and this continues forever.
    - Exactly. You just created an argument against perfection - making it look like a matter of subjective preferences.

    life permitting callibration is so low that if one constant got changed by very tiny amount, life would not exist at all!!!
    - How do you know another set of constants are impossible for life to emerge?
    - How do you know there weren’t universes before this universe which collapsed because they had lame constants? You don’t know that.
    - Also you are talking about a tiny fracture of the universe? This is not 70% OR 30% of it. Not even 1%. It is like 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00.1% of the universe or less that allows some life on it. So no, it doesn’t look like it was finely tuned for people to live in it.
    IN ORDER TO THINK WHAT YOU ARE THINKING, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT A VERY LIMITED PICTURE. BUT THAT DOESN’T SEEM RIGHT, MY FRIEND.


    actually, the word "perfect" is used by us due to our own subjective understanding of things.. so it is improper to call god "perfect" using our standards and understanding...
    - So stop calling god perfect on the basis of your subjective understanding.
    - Telling there is intelligence involved is also a matter of your subjective perception, not facts.

    maybe you understood me wrong here, I didn't mean "flawed" but rather "sinful". no evidence? people today refuse god and most humanity today are not muslims (because islam is god's only way) and the ugly stuff they do like homosexuality, terrorism, inslaving mankind (like america does), racism.... etc. you must be new to our world if you don't recognize this. absolutely.
    Maybe you don’t understand that the word SIN is a word coined by MEN, not GOD, to refer to actions WE don’t want to experience in the society, not GOD. WE gave the word that meaning, not GOD. We made up all these rules dividing things into sinful and not sinful. So it is totally subjective.
    - What your religion finds sinful, like the disbelief in god, is objectively not sinful at all. Actually it is ignorant and illogical to be a part of Islam, therefore, being a Muslim could be called sinful, objectively.
    - So you find homosexuality wrong and sinful. I find you wrong and sinful for holding that opinion on homosexuality.
    - Enslaving mankind? - Since when is slavery bad in Islam? Can Muslims have slaves and others can’t? This is called applying double standards.

    I maybe went harsher against you, but I really hope you open your mind more than that because I saw you affected by new atheism propaganda and arguing methodology which cares about bringing as much objections as there is without really thinking much on the other side.
    - Your religion is proven to use a wide range of manipulation techniques and it fills little kids with propaganda from the very beginning.
    - Islamic societies are proven to be less educated and also limiting other ideologies, including secular thought.
    - Islam threatens people with hellfire, and promises things that are not proven existing.
    - Islam alters words such as peace, love and justice.
    - Lots of Muslim scholars claim apostasy is punishable by death. - Do you have something to say about that?
    - ATHEISM DOESN’T DO THOSE THINGS. SO DON’T MENTION WORDS LIKE PROPAGANDA OR NARROW-MINDEDNESS, AS YOU YOURSELF BELONG TO A GROUP WELL KNOWN AS PIONNEERS OF MAKING PEOPLE MINDLESS DRONES.

    Also, how is it narrow-minded if I introduce other options and show how they are as possible as your religion or even more?

    1- If I told you I am a Super Saiyan God, would you believe it? why? is it possible? scientifically possible?
    - I would expect clear, testable and measurable evidence for every feature you would say you have. And it is as possible as your god or many gods. Or Spaghetti Monster.
    2- If a tiger killed a kid and ate it, is it a good thing or a bad thing? why? is it a sin? what if a human did the exact same thing... your answers to that?
    - It would be negative to the society. It would be worse if a man did it, because that man comes from our society causing additional danger to us, since we can more easily prevent danger from animals than from the inside of our communities. Because of that such a cruel act would also create a lot of anxiety within the community where it would happen.

    I have a question for you, too:
    Is it okay to marry a 7 year old girl who started to have periods 3 months ago, according to Islam? And is it okay to have an intercourse with her after marriage?

  11. افتراضي

    I am still waiting ....
    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
    <وَالسَّمَاءَ رَفَعَهَا وَوَضَعَ الْمِيزَانَ (7) أَلَّا تَطْغَوْا فِي الْمِيزَانِ (8) وَأَقِيمُوا الْوَزْنَ بِالْقِسْطِ وَلَا تُخْسِرُوا الْمِيزَانَ (9)>
    سورة الرحمن

    أحمد .. مسلم

  12. #357
    تاريخ التسجيل
    May 2010
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    المذهب أو العقيدة
    ملحد

    افتراضي

    So am I.

  13. افتراضي

    so be it !!

  14. #359
    تاريخ التسجيل
    May 2010
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    المذهب أو العقيدة
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    افتراضي

    There are no replies concerning my last post - should I move on to the next aspect of our discussion?

  15. Arrow

    God willing, I will respond, when the availability of what I have time to read the branching that has occurred without the direction in which you're talking
    To cover all kindly addressing it fully and apologized for concern

    Only a few points,, and I want to know where you stand them,,
    only of being with or against each item without refutation:
    1. The existence of God
    2-existence of God and his clear attributes
    3-goal and function of us in this life is a must
    4-There are a message from God to us is a must
    5-Islam is the correct message from God to us today

    Some points owed on each other, so what is not acceptable at all is not obligatory on all the consequences of it ..
    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
    <وَالسَّمَاءَ رَفَعَهَا وَوَضَعَ الْمِيزَانَ (7) أَلَّا تَطْغَوْا فِي الْمِيزَانِ (8) وَأَقِيمُوا الْوَزْنَ بِالْقِسْطِ وَلَا تُخْسِرُوا الْمِيزَانَ (9)>
    سورة الرحمن

    أحمد .. مسلم

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