:-)

[Charlie1965]

then Imagine that the universe without Creator is must be more and so blind ,, - You do not have anything
- The universe without elements based on faith should be a default position of everyone, whoever proposes something extra is obliged to bring evidence in order to be treated seriously.
- The universe with a conscious creator raises even more logical issues, it is adding an incredible agent to something not requiring any.

Nothing "in" the universe decides to "the emergence of the universe" alone, never.
- First of all, we don’t know what happened before the universe, we don’t know if “nothing” is a possibility in the first place.
- Secondly, who says the emergence of the universe required any decisions? Do you have any evidence for that?
- So your claim seems to be detached from reality.

How can I be afraid of talking about God ,, and I'm trying to prove its existence to you now? !!
- You are visibly afraid of touching specific aspects I wanted to talk about. You just want to mention those which are comfortable to you.

"The chances god has anything to do with your religion are so low that it is illogical to be a Muslim, even if god really exists":
this means :
= And recognize the existence of God as a possibility scientifically ,, and you do not want to discuss it.
- I don’t need to recognize the existence of something in order to talk about it hypothetically.
- And I claim that if god exists, you can only talk about it hypothetically. You don’t have evidence for more than that.
= Your logic "Profile" rejects this possibility ,, always !! - illogical blind "faith"-
- WRONG! I reject god since it lacks evidence, it is not faith, it is lack of faith. You can also call it being sceptical towards it like you would be towards just anything without basis.
- Give me evidence and I will accept god as a fact.
- You are the one making the claim: god exists. You don’t say he might hypothetically exist. If you do, then okay. But it didn’t sound like anyone of you guys meant it. So make up your mind:
1. Is it highly possible god exists? If so, give me evidence.
2. Is it just hypothetical? If so I could believe in any hypotheses out there. They don’t require evidence after all.

"Angels do not live in the universe" !! - You do not have any evidence on that& You need to know more & its not our subject.
- It is the other way around. You are the one who has to prove this element of your ideology is correct. If you can’t, it is just pointless to treat it seriously.

Let alone emotions and religion (I'll explain that later -if you need to ,God willing-) spoke only with a Focus on what will benefit you only scientifically- if you can.
- To be honest, I don’t know what you mean here.

SO YES, YOU ARE TOTALLY AFRAID. I EVEN GAVE YOU THE OPTION OF TALKING WITH ME AS IF I WAS A GOD BELIEVER AND YOU JUST ESCAPED, CALLING MY ARGUMENTS OUTRAGEOUS AND SUPPORTING THAT WITH NOTHING. MOST LIKELY BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOTHING TO SAY, REALLY. 

[محب الأمل الأحمد]

Charlie1965,


You say repeatedly that you need evidence,
but when you have it on your sight –the existence of the universe that is - as a fact:
you just say we don’t know!!
When you will ؟!!
The fact of the existence of the universe has by default another fact say there is must be a “Creator” there for it –name it as you want after that-
My topic with you not in the science itself no, my topic is the steps you take to believe in the god and how and when we as believers stand there.
Fact -> lead to facts
Universe -> to God as Creator
System –> a ruler for that –name it as you want then but he must be existed-
It’s just as simple as that no more, anything else is irrelevant.
Your believes are for you to decide it in the end; it’s not our problem at all.
Secondly if you need to know more about the god as another added believes, then yes you will need more evidences for that at the time, but now you just need the basics to proof the “Existence” of the God no more.
Thirdly we say “who does not have thing cannot give it”, so then if we have a “mind” so the creator must be has more by default, logically that is.
But that are an added faith to the existence of the Creator not before.
------------
If you need to talk about any other topics of our believes/faith, then consider another new topic in the forum for it, we don’t mind at all.
That is just to reject any conflict in your understanding.
1^st step: the existence of the Creator. => We are here now.
2^nd step: the rule we have in this planet.
3^ed step: there must be a massage for the Creator to us to know our purpose here.
All that are our faith accept or not on your discretion, that’s all.

[Charlie1965]

You say repeatedly that you need evidence,
but when you have it on your sight –the existence of the universe that is - as a fact:
you just say we don’t know!!
When you will ؟!!
- It is a matter of what you call evidence. I noted on multiple occasions that your standards of calling something evidence are pretty low. What you call evidence are in fact arguments.

The fact of the existence of the universe has by default another fact say there is must be a “Creator” there for it –name it as you want after that
- That is your assumption. And I already mentioned in messages above why it raises additional problems.

My topic with you not in the science itself no, my topic is the steps you take to believe in the god and how and when we as believers stand there.
- The steps you may take are all subjective, based on what you want to call evidence and what you really want to believe in.

Fact -> lead to facts
Universe -> to God as Creator
System –> a ruler for that –name it as you want then but he must be existed
It’s just as simple as that no more, anything else is irrelevant.
- You mean existence and complexity necessarily requires a creator. Go on and prove it. .

Secondly if you need to know more about the god as another added believes, then yes you will need more evidences for that at the time, but now you just need the basics to proof the “Existence” of the God no more.
- Like I stated above, your evidence are arguments.

Thirdly we say “who does not have thing cannot give it”, so then if we have a “mind” so the creator must be has more by default, logically that is.
- We don’t know whether nothingness is possible, we don’t know whether the rules from within the universe can be applied to the outside of it.

But that are an added faith to the existence of the Creator not before.
-Actually, this is not how things usually work among believers. Most believers become such when they are children. I suppose you were born in an Islamic family, too, weren't you? So in fact, you were told god exists and you believed without any evidence, you just did it because your mama and papa said so and you were a good boy. Over time you added arguments for your beloved god to the belief in that god you had already had.
You can always find justification for something that you already do, not a big deal.

That is just to reject any conflict in your understanding.
1st step: the existence of the Creator. => We are here now.
2nd step: the rule we have in this planet.
3ed step: there must be a massage for the Creator to us to know our purpose here.

Let’s say I am a believer now and I actually agree with you on step 1 (just for the sake of the conversation). Normally I would say that it depends on what you define as god. God could be a powerful being from outside this universe. And that being wouldn’t have to be responsible for the universe. So even if there is a god, this universe may have nothing to do with him.
BUT LET’S MOVE ON.
Why would I believe in step 2?
And why would you mention the planet instead of the entire universe? Let me answer why: Because the universe, apart from our planet and perhaps a few others, doesn’t have conditions for life - in other words, it doesn’t look like it is here for life to emerge in it, or as you would say: It wasn’t designed for life.
- When you take a look just at the planet, it feels like a miracle, the probability for all the conditions to be met is so low after all. But if you pay attention to the bigger picture, it starts to look pretty probable just on the basis of how vast the universe is and how many planets it holds, with each of them being a chance for life.
- So as a believer of god I have reasons think this universe as well as the Earth were not intended for us. You have to limit yourself to really see what you see.
Why would I believe in step 3?
- Step 3 is valid only if we have a purpose. And your step 2 just fell into pieces. So even if god created the universe, we might be a side effect of it, totally not intended to exist.
- But let’s say the universe was really (so conveniently) intended for us to exist. Who says the purpose we have is the one you believe in? Do you have any evidence for this purpose to be valid?
How do you know the message is not a trick from god or from some other forces? What if god is testing your gullibility? And if you are gullible enough to believe and follow any religion because of your blind faith and wishful, selfish thinking, he will send you to hell for all eternity?
This is just one scenario out of many that I have. And each of them are as possible in this hypothetical discussion as yours.

And just a reminder:
BEFORE YOU START CALLING ANY OF MY PROPOSITIONS RIDICULOUS, TRY TO STICK TO ARGUMENTS WHY THEY COULD BE SO. OTHERWISE THIS CONVERSATION WILL REACH A KINDERGARTEN LEVEL, WHERE KIDS JUST OFFEND EACH OTHER BASED ON HOW THEY FEEL.

[محب الأمل الأحمد]

1^st of all its not a debate here , it’s up to you to decide for yourself what you should believe in , so concern yourself with your faith not the audience here with me, because I am here just to explain some points you had it wrong in our faith to build on for your experience that’s all.

2^ndlly believe it or not there is a universe existing now and you have to deal with as a “fact”, so there is no any probability or skeptically aspects here too, so you should act and respond in the same manner as a respect for that knowledge we have at least -& it’s all for you in the end not me- .

3^rdlly if that explanation raises additional problem to you please do tell me to get more explanations but don’t Do not take our belief to your fake Perceptions about it!!

4^th I didn’t hear your answer as a solid faith until now at all you know!!
Are you thinking there is a creator to the universe or not?!!
Even our ancestors have that answer but you don’t!!!
The science is just for you to tell, not to “stop” thinking at all!!
You already have all the facts that you need –say arguments no problem- , but what is you answer?
You must have one before you die anyway.
>> Anyway it’s not my concern now.
>> again : for any added believes you will need more info-steps to stand on, so right now I just need your acknowledgment for the existence of the creator no more as characteristics for him.
And I have just given you 2: existence, all knowing.
--------------
You did Branched to other topics -again- and it’s really have some good Questions in a way but it’s not our main target here so sorry to disappoint you and not give you an answer in it right now
And you may saw some Muslim like what you talked about but it’s not our faith as example, our faith has rules to explain the logic in every aspect in it thank god, we don’t born just like that at all, we learn the truth all the way in our life and decide with ourselves in our countries or out all the time with NO Pressure at all, it’s just a matter of the consequences and we have to deal with it anyway.
And whenever you complete the prerequisite of every step I did say to you then that when we step over to the next detail or added faith to understand and deal with, don’t concern yourself with it before, because it’s not for you before you have a positive believe as fact to stand on.
--------
- You mean existence and complexity necessarily requires a creator. Go on and prove it.
I don’t even need that, because our universe and its content is a fair proof to it and in the other hand you don’t even have a single example for any other in the conflict with this at all –have it if you can-.

-------
- we don’t know whether the rules from within the universe can be applied to the outside of it.


Will, at least we are in the “universe” for me to talk about it , this is your problem if you need to prove my wrong saying..
But it’s a good point, the God we don’t have a rule to apply on him it’s just the other way around.
Good thinking..

i will answer all what’s above from your questions -god willing i hope- but don’t speed up the info-steps I don’t have the English as 1st language..

[Charlie1965]

1st of all its not a debate here , it’s up to you to decide for yourself what you should believe in , so concern yourself with your faith not the audience here with me, because I am here just to explain some points you had it wrong in our faith to build on for your experience that’s all.
- If it was a matter of preferences, I wouldn’t even raise it. I don’t believe in god because it lacks evidence, not because I personally choose not to. You also probably believe that you believe in god, because there is evidence for god. Plus you believe in all those other details.
- Now, do you claim it is logical to be a Muslim, or it is just a preference like when you choose your favourite music?


2ndlly believe it or not there is a universe existing now and you have to deal with as a “fact”, so there is no any probability or skeptically aspects here too, so you should act and respond in the same manner as a respect for that knowledge we have at least -& it’s all for you in the end not me-
- When did I make it feel like I don’t believe there is a universe? This piece you wrote here is completely senseless.


3rdlly if that explanation raises additional problem to you please do tell me to get more explanations but don’t Do not take our belief to your fake Perceptions about it!!
- That is exactly what I am asking for. Answer me why your hypothetical conclusions/scenarios could be better than any others? So far you failed to indicate that.


4th I didn’t hear your answer as a solid faith until now at all you know!!
Are you thinking there is a creator to the universe or not?!!
- You know I am an atheist, so my position is neutral towards the claim.

Even our ancestors have that answer but you don’t!!!
- It is better to have no answers than to have wrong ones. And our ancestors definitely had lots of wrong answers, including the one you love so much, unless you have evidence it is actually not wrong.

The science is just for you to tell, not to “stop” thinking at all!!
You already have all the facts that you need –say arguments no problem- , but what is you answer?
- This is my answer: Your answer is as probable as a thousand other answers you don’t believe in. Therefore, it is illogical to be a Muslim. So why are you one? Why don’t you abandon Islam when it is not a good idea? Is it just because you subjectively “prefer” it? If so, I will leave this thread.
What we already know about the universe doesn't point to god. So I don't believe in any.

You must have one before you die anyway.
>> Anyway it’s not my concern now.
>> again : for any added believes you will need more info-steps to stand on, so right now I just need your acknowledgment for the existence of the creator no more as characteristics for him.
And I have just given you 2: existence, all knowing.
- Your information consists of faith based assumptions, not knowledge. Your information is as valid as Harry Potter.

You did Branched to other topics -again- and it’s really have some good Questions in a way but it’s not our main target here so sorry to disappoint you and not give you an answer in it right now
And you may saw some Muslim like what you talked about but it’s not our faith as example, our faith has rules to explain the logic in every aspect in it thank god, we don’t born just like that at all, we learn the truth all the way in our life and decide with ourselves in our countries or out all the time with NO Pressure at all
- WITH NO PRESSURE AT ALL, BIG LOLS. What is the punishment for apostasy in Islam? What, according to your religion, happens to a man who doesn’t believe in god? Isn’t he tortured in hell for that? How do Muslims react to other ideologies?

, it’s just a matter of the consequences and we have to deal with it anyway.
And whenever you complete the prerequisite of every step I did say to you then that when we step over to the next detail or added faith to understand and deal with, don’t concern yourself with it before, because it’s not for you before you have a positive believe as fact to stand on.
- I already told you why your steps are not very logical.

I don’t even need that, because our universe and its content is a fair proof to it and in the other hand you don’t even have a single example for any other in the conflict with this at all –have it if you can-.
- So your position is as follows: You don’t know how it happened, but you are dishonest (since you started up with a belief and you lack evidence for it), so you will say god did it to just have an answer instead of no answer. I already explained how no answer is better than a wrong answer. It is much more difficult for you to accept good answers if you are already filled with wrong ones.

Will, at least we are in the “universe” for me to talk about it , this is your problem if you need to prove my wrong saying..
- Actually, it is not my problem at all, it is a problem you don’t realize you have, even though, I explained it to you like 2 times already.

But it’s a good point, the God we don’t have a rule to apply on him it’s just the other way around.
Good thinking.
- That’s a belief. Whether you put god there or something else is a matter of preferences. And since you are a Muslim… 

i will answer all what’s above from your questions -god willing i hope- but don’t speed up the info-steps I don’t have the English as 1st language…
- How about answering this if you aren’t afraid?
Take a look at those scenarios:
1. [YOURS] Muhammad received a message from god so people would know how to live and how to go to heaven.
2. [MINE ] Muhammad received a message from god so god would see who is willing to believe Muhammad proving they are gullible and selfish, which means they only deserve to go to hell for that.
3. [MINE ] Muhammad receives a message from a force which is not god but describes itself as god. And this force torments every soul which makes contact with it.
4. Spaghetti Monster.
Do you believe there is anything that makes your scenario/belief more credible/logical/probable than 2, 3, and 4? Or perhaps you think choosing one of those is just a matter of preferences?

[محب الأمل الأحمد]

ملاحظة للمسؤولين : هذا مجرد شخص مغرض يريد نشر الشبهات للمشاهدين عنده -بيتمنظر وبس- ، ولا طائل من جداله وتكراراته العقيمة ..
---------
الى Charlie1965 :
- عندما تكون رجل بما يكفي لحيازة "معتقد" لسبب "وجود الكون" وتحاور على اساسه عندها فقط يكون لك الحق في نقد من لهم معتقد بذلك.
كل ما نقول ثور يقول احلبوه !! ربنا يشفي يا رب ..
- تكرارك الدائم بافتقاد من يحاورك الى الدليل ، أصبح مسخة بلا طعم في فمك ، حتى انك تقولها في العاطل والباطل .
- الكارثية :
انك تحاور انسان وتريد ان تشرح له شيء ، وكلما تطلعه على شرح ،، يعطيك شرح آخر في عقله وحده عنه ، وكأنه سمعه منك !!
هذا يدعى كذب صريح ،، وتقوّل على الآخرين ،، وبجاحة => باختصار : دجال .
- الكلام بالعربي لتتجرع مرارة الترجمة وضياع الوقت الذي تكلفه لغيرك في تفاهاتك،،
ويستحب ان يترجمه لك أحد اقرانك العرب لأن وقعه الصوتي ربما يكون انسب لأمثالك..
فإن استطعت الرد عليه وفهمته فهذا سيضطرني للرد على كل تفاهاتك بالعربي أيضا لتعرف قيمة ما تقوله الحقيقة وتفضح على الملأ بين الناس باللغتين .
>> وانا أعلم تمام العلم معرفتك للعربية بشكل او بآخر وإلا لما جروءت على دخول هذا الموقع اصلا .
- هذا الموقع ليس لعرض تفاهاتك التبشيرية بالإلحاد وسخرياتك العقيمة وبالاخص عندما تقول ما تقول مكررا وتكرارا كالمسجل المكسور.
======================
الرد على التفاهات :
======================
1- البيه عمال يقول انه الايمان بالله مفتقد الى الدليل بتكرار ممل وكأننا لا نسمعه !!
ولكن فيما يبدو انه لا يرى الكون امامه يحتاج الى الله ليكون ماثلا امامه ،، => باختصار البعيد أعمى .
لكن حتى لو شاف هيعمل ايه يعني غير تكرار الاسطوانة المشروخة اياها : "انت تفتقر الى الدليل"
2- كل شوية عمال يلسن على المسلمين ، انت متبع اتباع اعمى انت ابصر ايه ،، ... الخ من التوافه :
طبعا ده كلام اعلاني تافه بيحاول يشغب بيه على من يتابعه بلغته ليس اكثر من ناحية واللف والدوران لعدم
الرد على ما طالبته من من ردود من ناية اخرى ،، ودي سياسة عيانة اسمها "اضرب واجرى" :
في العادة يستخدمها الاطفال قبل سن الرشد ،، ويبدو انه يتصور لها فعالية ما في هذا الحوار من شدة نصاحته..
3- كل شوية اشرح له شيء يقول انت بتتكلم عن احتمالات انت بتتكلم بشكل تخيلي ،، انا هرد عليك بشكل افتراضي ... الخ
البيه عايش في عالم ميكي ماوس فيما يبدو والكون عنده ليس اكثر من احتمالات وافتراضات وسيناريوهات .. الى آخر هذه المترادفات
=> لربما هذا من رعبه من مجرد تصور كونه حقيقة يجب عليه ان يتعامل معها عاجلا او آجلا ،،
ولكنه في الدنيا اختار لنفسه تجاهلها بهذا الشكل ،، ليواجها في شكل عذاب يوم القيامة بإذن الله ،، فهنيئا له باختياره ..
4- يتصور انه لمجرد انه ملحد اذن يجب ان يكون موقفه محايد
يبدو انه اخذ الالحاد في مدرسة نصرانية او شيء فهو ياخذه الحاده كالتثليث باعتباره شيء ثابت وجامد (ولا يعالجه في رأسه)
يا رب ينبت له رأس في القريب العاجل قبل ان تعاجله منيته يا رب العالمين ، فنتمنى له الشفاء العاجل بكل صراحة ..
ولما اخبرته انه حتى اسلافنا اتخذوا موقف في هذه القضية رغم ما كانوا فيه من جهل ،، جاء باجابة اكثر جهلا منهم تقول :
انه من الافضل عدم الوقوف على اجابة عن ان يختار اجابة خطأ !!
- طبعا لو فعلت البشرية مثل قوله هذا في اى شيء ذو اهمية :
لما انتفع اى احد باى تجربة ولا حتى حرك اصبع قدمه الصغير بهذا الصدد ، لكي لا يختار اجابة خطأ ،، ذكي فيما يبدو -
5- ظل دوما يتفرع من موضوع لموضوع وهذا مثال :
تحدث عن المسلم المقلد ،، فلما اخبرته انه لا علاقة له بتعاليم الدين ،، انتقل الآن لحد الردة !!
يبدو ان هناك ماكينة طرد مركزي عملاقة في رأسه تطرده دوما عن معالجة الاسئلة الصحيحة التى نطالبه بها وتضعه في خانة عجيبة كل مرة .
6- مازال يعيش في عالم الفكاهة والسيناريوهات الضيقة الافق (طبعا لأنه يصادر كل شيء بلا اى نوع من انواع الاستدلال)
وبالتالي كله متساوي عنده ،، لكنه إن علم :
ان الكون لابد له من خالق ،، => اذن لا توجد سناريوهات اخرى فليس الا خالق واحد مهما كان اسمه
ان الدين هو رسالة السماء => اذن الدين الصحيح وحده هو رسالة السماء ولا سناريوهات اخرى في ذلك
ان الايمان ضرورة للنجاة => اذن تبطل كل السناريوهات الاخرى اذ لم يعترف بها ولا بصحتها الله

وهو بالنهاية شخص لا يريد ترتيب افكاره مطلقا ويريدها مثل السيناريوا الاخير الخاص به مثل وحش الاسباكتي هذا او اى سلطة والسلام .

[Charlie1965]

What is the meaning of this approach? Do you believe it is polite what you are doing?

I managed to decode this and that with a translator.
So, if god created the universe, there are still millions of possible scenarios/hypotheses following the creation. One of them is the Islamic one which says that we are created to be tested in a particular way on this planet so then god would decide who deserves what after they die. Also the rules of the testing are given.

But just because you see only that explanation, doesn't make it correct. You have to prove it is really better than others.
I, on the other hand, was willing to consider yours and draw conclusions, why are you unable to do the same thing with the ones I gave you?

I asked you an honest question which perhaps is not related to the topic you imposed here but what keeps you from answering?

You still didn't tell me what makes your definition/description of god and his interference in this world more credible than the ones I introduced?
Since you can't answer (I am still waiting in case you come up with something), it is logical to assume your decision was subjective and has nothing to do with logic. In other words, it is really not a wise decision or at least there is no evidence it is.

[محب الأمل الأحمد]

What is the meaning of this approach? Do you believe it is polite what you are doing?

المعنى هو الوصول لهذه المشاركة منك بالتحديد ،، لأنك تسهب في تفصيلات فرعية سأحتاج للاجابة عليها الكثير من الوقت الذي يمكنني اختصاره لك بالعربية ،، طالما تريد اطالة أمد الحوار في فرعيات تافهة ،، (وهذا هو اختيارك اصلا لا اختياري : لهذا فهو يعتبر مهذبا جدا ،، لاسيما عندما اسمح للقراء عندي أيضا بمتابعة الحوار ذاته كذلك ،، وبالخصوص لأنك تريد الاستعراض الفكري والتكرار دوما ، فتأخذ مني ما تستحقه على حقيقته)

there are still millions of possible scenarios/hypotheses following the creation.

وكأنك يمكنك تسمية بعضها !!

لا توجد كل هذه الاحتمالات ،، انت تضحك على نفسك بالرقم التصوري/التخيلي فقط ،، عندما تتكلم عن الكون ضع مكانه حرف س واخبرني ماذا يمكنه ان يخلق س ويجعله حقيقة واقعه ملموسة امام ناظريك ،، اذا عندك سبب "حقيقي" فقله لنا ،، وان لم تمتلك مثل هذا السبب فعليك الاذعان لـ"حقيقة" وجود خالق بالضرورة لهذا : الـ"س" أو الكون في هذه الحالة ..

One of them is the Islamic one which says that we are created to be tested in a particular way on this planet so then god would decide who deserves what after they die. Also the rules of the testing are given

اخبرتك من قبل ان لا تعيد شرح معتقدي الاسلامي فانت جاهل به كما هو واضح واعادتك لمثل هذه الشروح واقحامك لها داخل حوار وسؤال عن خلق الكون مضحك جدا ،، (وهذا من ضمن ما تقول عنه انه غير مهذب بالمناسبة) ،، كل هذا الكلام لا داعي له مطلقا في هذا السياق -هذا ان كان صدقا- ،، ونظرتنا الاسلامية تمتلك جانب "واقعي" انت تغفل عنه عمدا بهذا الصدد وتريد منع اظهاره للقراء من حولك -وهو ليس مشكلتي اطلاقا-

الجانب الواقعي في نظرتنا الاسلامية : هو ان الكون لابد له من خالق ،، ابحث بالعلم او بدون العلم ولابد للعاقل ان يصل لهذه الحقيقة لا محالة .

وسألتك في ذلك قبلا : وأنت لا تريد ان تجيبني عن السؤال بمن يمكنه ذلك ؟؟!!
-فضلا عن ان العلم يقرر لنا انه يستحيل في الكون الظهور من عدم فجأة-

لذا فان لم تكن لديك اجابه فعلى الأقل ،، افهم ردي بشأنه وتقبله على ما هو عليه ولا تشغب عليه او تفهمه بفهم خطأ مغاير .
ثم لاحقا ، اقبله او ارفضه فهذا شأنك : فانا لا احاور هنا لاقنعك فيه انا احاور لعرض المبدأ للقراء فقط .

But just because you see only that explanation, doesn't make it correct. You have to prove it is really better than others.
I, on the other hand, was willing to consider yours and draw conclusions, why are you unable to do the same thing with the ones I gave you?

هذا صحيح لماذا لا تطبقه على فكرك ؟؟!!

قلت لك من قبل انا معي "الكون" كله لأستدل به -كوحدة واحدة- كدليل على كلامي ،،
فلماذا يصعب عليك تصور ذلك ،، هل هو اضخم من المتوقع والمعتاد في نظرك ام ماذا ؟!!

في المقابل لا اجد على كلامك "بـ صحة الاحتمالات الاخرى" اى دليل ،،
ولهذا انا مسلم ومعي الدليل ، وانت ملحد وليس معك دليل ، امامي منذ اول وهلة -وهذه هي اجابة سؤال سابق لك-

انا افهم كلامك جيدا بالفعل ،، لكن المشكلة انك لا تفهم كلامي جيدا ،، فابحث عن السبب عندك .

I asked you an honest question which perhaps is not related to the topic you imposed here but what keeps you from answering?

اى موضوع خارج السياق اخبرتك انه بامكانك طرحه في موضوع مستقل في المنتدى هنا ليأخذ حقه من الاجابة ،،
فلماذا تتصور انه يجب ان اجيبك عليه هنا "بالعافية" !!

عموما وتنزلا معك اعد تحديد سؤالك وسأجيبك عليه بالعربية هنا طالما قد وفرت علي وقت الترجمة -اذا رغبت- ..

You still didn't tell me what makes your definition/description of god and his interference in this world more credible than the ones I introduced?

كما قلت لك من قبل لأننا نمتلك الدليل على كل صفة من صفات الله عز وجل ،، وبينت لك ذلك بأنها خطوات معرفية ،، وبينت لك انها مبنية على بعضها البعض فلا يمكنك القفز على بعضها دون تحقيق فهم تام لما سبقها من صفات ،،

انت في المقابل لم توفر اسباب صادقة للحصول على هذه المعرفة ،، فلم تقل انك معترف بوجود الله -الا جدليا والجدلية هنا لا تغني عن الحقيقة-،،
لأحدثك عن اى استدلال تالي لذلك ،وبالتالي انت من تمنع نفسك من رؤية بقية الاستدلالات المنطقية الاخرى وليس أنا ..

اما بخصوص ما تقوله انت بهذا الصدد فليس اكثر من بعض المهاترات هنا و هناك لا اكثر ولا يقوم على اى دليل ،،
فضلا عن ان تأتي لتحاجج به مسلمين !!

Since you can't answer (I am still waiting in case you come up with something), it is logical to assume your decision was subjective and has nothing to do with logic. In other words, it is really not a wise decision or at least there is no evidence it is

انت شاطر في الاتهامات ،، لكن لما حد يطالبك بدليل ،، تتوه على موضوعات تانية
انا ايضا انتظر "دليلك" على ما تدعيه بفارغ الصبر !!
وكذلك دليل على الحادك المزعوم ،، لأنه برأيي ليس أكثر من فقاعة فارغة ،، واحب ان اذكرك بأحد محتوياتها : "no answer is better than a wrong answer." وهذا يعني انك لا تملك شيء ،، مجرد كونك بارع في تسويق هذا "اللاشيء" لا يعني ابدا انك على حق ولا حتى انك تستحق الاتباع ،، ولا حتى انك تملك دليل ولا اى شيء كائنا ما يكون بأى صدد نتحدث عنه .

it is really not a wise decision or at least there is no evidence it is

خدوهم بالصوت وجيب اللى فيك فيهم ،، يبدو ان القاعدة هي : قل ما تشاء طالما فقدت الدليل فلا عيب عليك ولا حرج ..

[Charlie1965]

Tak się składa, kolego, że angielski nie jest i moim ojczystym językiem.
Ale nie przyszło mi jakoś do głowy, żeby pisać do ciebie po polsku, z oczywistych powodَw - Ty po polsku prawdopodobnie nie mَwisz, więc i wszystkiego o co mi chodzi nie zrozumiesz.

I z tego właśnie powodu ja nie zamierzam niczego tutaj sobie tłumaczyć.
Nie mَwię już nawet o czystej uprzejmości - no ale jak widać, co kraj to obyczaj.

Czekam na "normalną" odpowiedź.
Miłego dnia.

[محب الأمل الأحمد]

اذن قد فهمت معاناتي في الترجمة اللغوية لكي تصل اليك سليمة بحمد الله ،،
لذا رجاء حاول مستقبلا الالتزام بأقصر اجابة ممكنه لكل سؤال وعدم التكرار،،
فكثير مما تسأل عنه له ردود قصيرة لن تفهمها حتى ان ترجمتها لك في مقالة كبيرة ، لأن معناها سيضيع ،،

الطريق البديل هو الردود القصيرة المنطقية والحاسمة فقط ،، ولكن يعيبها انك يجب ان تأخذها بترتيبها دون زيادة او نقصان.

So you may understand now my suffering in language translator in order to reach to you praise God,,
So please try in the future commitment to the shortest possible answer for each question and the non-repetition,,
Many than ask for his short responses you will not understand it until I translate that in a big article, but the meaning would be lost mostly,,
The alternative route is to respond in short, decisive and logical but flawed, because you should take them arranged without an increase or decrease.

[Charlie1965]

Ok, no problem. You could have just told me.

[Charlie1965]

I will gladly continue from here:

1st step: the existence of the Creator. => We are here now.
2nd step: the rule we have in this planet.
3ed step: there must be a massage for the Creator to us to know our purpose here.

FIRST OF ALL: WHY JUST ONE CREATOR? WHY NOT MORE?
How is one creator more possible than 2, 5 or 200?

If step 1 and 2 are true, there is still no need for a message from the creator.
That would only depend on his approach towards us. He may care or not about us. And even if he cares, he may not care the way you think he does.

If god or gods don't care:
1. The message is man-made.
2. The message comes from another source which is not god but possibly some other entity. It could be some evil force.
3. You annoy that god or gods when praying possibly also because your religion is wrong.
4. He or they like your prayer even though your religion is still false

If god or gods really care about us:
1. Your scenario can be true
2. A religion other than yours can be true
3. The message may still be man-made, since you don't know how god or gods care about you. Maybe they care after you die only and you are not supposed to receive any messages from them now or try to contact them
4. It could be a message from another source again. God or gods don't interfere, it is up to you to decide whether you want to take a risk or not.
5. The message is partly untrue. God or gods lied to you to see whether you are silly enough to buy it or not. If so, you don't deserve his/their attention and happiness in the afterlife.

I gave here at least 8 possibilities (there are obviously many more). Only two of them lead you to heaven or perhaps some profit. In case of others you just waste your time as a Muslim or you ask for trouble.
Just on the basis of probability, being a Muslim is not a good choice.

Cheers!

[محب الأمل الأحمد]

FIRST OF ALL: WHY JUST ONE CREATOR? WHY NOT MORE?
How is one creator more possible than 2, 5 or 200?

Because they said they were more than a god,, will disputing among themselves on the referee and to be as the King of the universe and other,,

but we do not see any impact of that conflict in the laws of the universe, which mean and requires one and only one god.

otherwise it will be a Corruption

قال تعالى :
[لَوْ كَانَ فِيهِمَا آَلِهَةٌ إِلَّا اللَّهُ لَفَسَدَتَا فَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَرْشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ (22)]
سورة الأنبياء

But we do not find any of that..

If step 1 and 2 are true, there is still no need for a message from the creator.

In fact, it must be God shows us the message, but without it we would not know good from evil - from what we are required to do -.

That would only depend on his approach towards us. He may care or not about us. And even if he cares, he may not care the way you think he does.

To settle this matter:
Will,We already have a Specific Message from him now called the Qura'n, what you are will be doing in this regard?

If god or gods don't care:
1. The message is man-made.
2. The message comes from another source which is not god but possibly some other entity. It could be some evil force.
3. You annoy that god or gods when praying possibly also because your religion is wrong.
4. He or they like your prayer even though your religion is still false

1. perhaps, try to prove it, the Quran in front of you (in Arabic only).
2. If they are, it will not be such miracles as the Quran
3. he could destroy us all the time, why did not he do? !!
4. We are pleased to happy him,, precaution from him is always better

If god or gods really care about us:
1. Your scenario can be true
2. A religion other than yours can be true
3. The message may still be man-made, since you don't know how god or gods care about you. Maybe they care after you die only and you are not supposed to receive any messages from them now or try to contact them
4. It could be a message from another source again. God or gods don't interfere, it is up to you to decide whether you want to take a risk or not.
5. The message is partly untrue. God or gods lied to you to see whether you are silly enough to buy it or not. If so, you don't deserve his/their attention and happiness in the afterlife

2. discovered that if you can, there is no wrong message without errors certainly
3. so Discover that too if you can,, proved Man always fault,, and the Quran defies human beings and requires them to obtain even a single error since the 14 century without any error even today.
4. worship of God will not be a big problem then.
5. God does not lie,, and does not need to lie originally, lying is a tool for the weak and impotent, God is not , but why Speech in the details that God is Already clarified to us with something else.

I gave here at least 8 possibilities (there are obviously many more). Only two of them lead you to heaven or perhaps some profit. In case of others you just waste your time as a Muslim or you ask for trouble.
Just on the basis of probability, being a Muslim is not a good choice.

Not a question of the large number of possibilities,, but,, follow the right question you did not follow the right, you deal with the potential only in spite of being a living in the real fact,, you must have to deal with the facts of being compared to the live,,

I am as a Muslim, earning in all cases:
- If there is a God, then I'm a endorsers so
- If there is no God, then I did not lose something eventually
Unlike your doing, you:
- If there is a God, you will be in purgatory on disobeying
- If there is no God, you are not doing something for yourself in any case,

I have to answer in detail, not to prolong the ramifications Thread,, but for your convenience of a lot of points that are not only unnecessary.

have a Good faith

[Charlie1965]

I would love to tear apart each of your arguments separately so the discussion will be clear and brief.

First monotheism vs. polytheism.
You said gods would mention their existence if there were more of them. Then we have pagans who believed in many gods. You could assume those gods revealed themselves to those men. Also some gods could care to communicate with us while others wouldn't.
You believe there would be some need for a referee among gods, and that is also the case in many pagan religions. For instance, Odin was the father of all gods in Scandinavian myths, just like Zeus in Greek ones, while Ra for ancient Egyptians was one of the main figures.
But what is the worst in your argument is that you try to apply rules from within human societies, where hierarchy is often necessary, to divine beings!!! Now this is just outrageous! Why would divine beings need any referee? Aren't they super intelligent and super powerful? Can’t they teamwork if they feel so without a leader? If you say they can’t, you are denying their abilities you can’t even dream of.
Also, perhaps your god is real, but he is just one of many, possibly too selfish to admit it. Or he is simply dishonest, because he is testing you and your ability to think instead of blind believing.
And since you failed to note what I noted, you will suffer for that for all eternity.

I shall wait for your response to this part before moving on to the next argument.

[محب الأمل الأحمد]

It seems that you have an imbalance in the understanding of my purpose:

I- talking about denial, "the possibility of" the presence of more than God (to the collision between the need perfection among themselves - if they are - in government and other)
(This is the reason for the impossibility of polytheism)
= You imagine I proved plurality,, understand this error.
= You imagine the existence of a hierarchy,, I am talking about only one God.
= The existence of more than one God means that all God's presence in perfection challenged the divinity of all of them (this is why the impossibility of polytheism).

Also, perhaps your god is real, but he is just one of many

If found true God,, there would be no other
All others impossible, described by the gods after him

he is testing you and your ability to think instead of blind believing

This speech just repeat
the Respond to it very clear
know God's message to you and then carried out.
Without your knowledge will continue to be lost in this world of suspicious possibilities .