Question about cost of apostasy

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullahe wa barakatu!

As we know the cost of apostasy is death penalty. I want to know, is it obligatory to put to death an apostate? There is verse in Qur'an which states ''There's no compulsion in religion'' . And in case, a learned Muslim is supposed to discuss or debate on religion & wants to try to get the truth, but in the end he may decide to apostatize, may find Islam illogical; would it be an obligation to kill him still if there's no any compulsion in religion i.e Islam?

[أبو القـاسم]

أختي الفاضلة مارية ..لا أدري هل كتابتك الإنجليزية بسبب عدم تمكنك من حروف عربية أم لأنك لا تحسنين سواها فسأجيب بالعربية باختصار مفترضا أنك عربية ..
بخصوص الردة : فهي في الإسلام عقوبة إلهية ثبت بها النص الشرعي عن النبي ( ص ) : من بدل دينه فاقتلوه ، وهذا لا يتعارض مع آية (لا إكراه في الدين ) لأن آية عدم الإكراه مفادها ترك حمل الناس على اعتناق الدين بالإكراه ..هذا أقصى ما يمكن أن يستفاد منها في أحد الأقوال في تفسيرها ، ولكن التصريح بترك الدين الإسلامي خيانة لله ورسوله ، فلا يستوي في الحكم مع كافر أصلي ، الكافر الأصلي لا نجبره على الدخول في الإسلام ، والله يقول بعد هذا المقطع من الآية (قد تبين الرشد من الغي ) فالحق بيّن لا حاجة فيه لإكراه أصلا ، ولكن من كان مسلما ثم خان الله بالردة ..فقد أوقع الله عليه عقوبة حماية للمجتمع للمسلم من الاغترار بذلك فيكون فتنة لغيره .وقد قال الله تعالى (والفتنة أكبر من القتل ) وقال (والفتنة أشد من القتل ) ..يعني فتنة الناس عن دينهم أشد من القتل ، وحماية له أيضا لانه سيفكر ألف مرة قبل إقدامه على خطوة كهذا ويراجع حساباته فيكون أقرب لرجوعه وأدعى لتوبته .. لكن هذا الحكم وهو قتل المرتد لا يكون مباشرة ولا يكون مع جميع أنواع الناس على نفس السوية بل يختلف ما بين شخص وآخر بحسب حالته ، ..فيحاجّ قبلها ويبين له وجه الحق بالبراهين ...فإذا أصر وأبى وعاند فحكمه القتل ..وأما افتراض أن تقع مناظرة بين اثنين ثم لا يقتنع ، فهذا فرض متوهم لا حقيقة له في الواقع ..لأن حجة الحق بالغة بينة ..وإنما تقع المكابرة والعناد ..لا غير ..والله أعلم

[أبو القـاسم]

ومن باب التقريب : أمريكا مثلا أو أي دولة لا تجبر احدا ان يحصل على هوية الدولة ، لكن من يحمل الجواز الأمريكي مطالب بشروط ..فإذا وقعت منه خيانة للبلد أو نحو ذلك ، يقتلونه أو أقل شيء يسحبون منه الهوية ..فلا يصح قياس أصل الدخول في الدين على الخروج منه

[بحب دينى]

Our sister Maria : did you understand the answer of the brother by the Arabic languge or you need a translation of his answer to the English language?

[أميمة]

Muslims believe that the words which Allah revealed to the prophets were written down in books. The last book, which was given to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) is the Qur’an. The Quran is the only book from Allah which is complete and preserved in its original form
as long as you Choosed to be a muslem that means that you accepted all the rules of islam not some parts only , exactly as you accept the rules of registration in a bank or any company you deal with before you make contract with them , are you sure that you accept eslam??? .

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

Muslims believe that the words which Allah revealed to the prophets were written down in books. The last book, which was given to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وسلم) is the Qur’an. The Quran is the only book from Allah which is complete and preserved in its original form
as long as you Choosed to be a muslem that means that you accepted all the rules of islam not some parts only , exactly as you accept the rules of registration in a bank or any company you deal with before you make contract with them , are you sure that you accept eslam??? .
Yes I am a Muslim. But I was just asking a question. Cannot I?
And I cannot write or understand Arabic so I have to write in English.

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

Our sister Maria : did you understand the answer of the brother by the Arabic languge or you need a translation of his answer to the English language?

No. I think his reply doesn't answer my question completely

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

أختي الفاضلة مارية ..لا أدري هل كتابتك الإنجليزية بسبب عدم تمكنك من حروف عربية أم لأنك لا تحسنين سواها فسأجيب بالعربية باختصار مفترضا أنك عربية ..
بخصوص الردة : فهي في الإسلام عقوبة إلهية ثبت بها النص الشرعي عن النبي ( ص ) : من بدل دينه فاقتلوه ، وهذا لا يتعارض مع آية (لا إكراه في الدين ) لأن آية عدم الإكراه مفادها ترك حمل الناس على اعتناق الدين بالإكراه ..هذا أقصى ما يمكن أن يستفاد منها في أحد الأقوال في تفسيرها ، ولكن التصريح بترك الدين الإسلامي خيانة لله ورسوله ، فلا يستوي في الحكم مع كافر أصلي ، الكافر الأصلي لا نجبره على الدخول في الإسلام ، والله يقول بعد هذا المقطع من الآية (قد تبين الرشد من الغي ) فالحق بيّن لا حاجة فيه لإكراه أصلا ، ولكن من كان مسلما ثم خان الله بالردة ..فقد أوقع الله عليه عقوبة حماية للمجتمع للمسلم من الاغترار بذلك فيكون فتنة لغيره .وقد قال الله تعالى (والفتنة أكبر من القتل ) وقال (والفتنة أشد من القتل ) ..يعني فتنة الناس عن دينهم أشد من القتل ، وحماية له أيضا لانه سيفكر ألف مرة قبل إقدامه على خطوة كهذا ويراجع حساباته فيكون أقرب لرجوعه وأدعى لتوبته .. لكن هذا الحكم وهو قتل المرتد لا يكون مباشرة ولا يكون مع جميع أنواع الناس على نفس السوية بل يختلف ما بين شخص وآخر بحسب حالته ، ..فيحاجّ قبلها ويبين له وجه الحق بالبراهين ...فإذا أصر وأبى وعاند فحكمه القتل ..وأما افتراض أن تقع مناظرة بين اثنين ثم لا يقتنع ، فهذا فرض متوهم لا حقيقة له في الواقع ..لأن حجة الحق بالغة بينة ..وإنما تقع المكابرة والعناد ..لا غير ..والله أعلم

Thank you for addressing to my question. Can you prove all this by giving any reference? I have watched some videos , where some scholars try to prove , it is a choice to kill an apostate, it is not an obligation. While some people say it was necessary at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and now it is not necessary. Some people say apostate should be killed only in Islamic state . Under non-Islamic state they can be left alive. What do you say all about it?

[BStranger]

Thank you for addressing to my question. Can you prove all this by giving any reference? I have watched some videos , where some scholars try to prove , it is a choice to kill an apostate, it is not an obligation. While some people say it was necessary at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and now it is not necessary. Some people say apostate should be killed only in Islamic state . Under non-Islamic state they can be left alive. What do you say all about it?

Apostates cannot be killed in non-Islamic states because Muslims are not allowed to take things in their own hands. The only people who can make laws are the Caliph and/or the judge, which also applies to honor killing, but that's another topic. While in a Muslim state, it also depends. There are apostates who you don't even know they are apostates. They can only be killed if they said that they left Islam, and after he has been asked (istitaba). While there are apostates who hurt Islam and spread disorder in Muslim communities, and they are killed. Historically, there were heretics that lived under Islamic rule, and they were not even touched, sadly.

[أميمة]

You said that you can not anderstand arabic , how could you judje that his reply doesn't answer your question completely

[أميمة]

Yes I am a Muslim. But I was just asking a question. Cannot I?
And I cannot write or understand Arabic so I have to write in English.

Of course you can ask question , but you try to tell that this is not fair as you think so, can you answer my question about contract betwen you and any bank or company, as they tell you : if you agree about our conditions we can make contract,then after agreement ,you tried to refuse what you agreed and say this is not fair, this is the reason I asked you if you really accepted rules of Islame as long as you say that you are muslem because this means acceptance of all rules , when you decided to be muslem

[واسطة العقد]

A translation for the 3# and 2# replies
About apostasy, it's a divine punishment authenticated by Hadith from the prophet - pace be upon him - " kill who change his religion -Islam-". This doesn't contrast with the verse " There is no compulsion in religion" becouse the verse means not to force people to become muslims... this is the most that we can get from the verse. However, stating that one will leave Islam is a betrayal to God and his prophet. So its not the same with a Kafir who didnt become muslim, The Kafir who didnt become muslim will not be forced to do so. The verse says next "Truth stands out clear from Error" the truth is clear, we dont have to force people to embrace it. But who was a muslim and then betrayed God by apostasy, God has punished him to protect the muslim community from that so it wont be Fetna -strife- for others. God says in the holy Quraan "The strife is worse than murder" to strife people form the religion is worst than murder.. And it is a protecion for that individual too, because he will think a thousand times before doing that and will rethink many times so he will be close to actual repent. But this punishment - apostasy- is not an immediate punishment, it differs for each one. He will be convinced to the truth by evidenecs before that and will be given all the kinds of evidences and proofs. If he insisted on the Kofir he will be killed.. assuming that there will be a debated that he will not be convinced is a false assuming because the truth and its evidences are clear, what might happen is stubbornness and arrogance.
For example: America or any country dont force people to have its citizenship, but once someone have it he will be required to several things, so if he betrayal the country he will be killed or he will lose his citizenship as punishment. Therfore, there is no analogy between entering a religion and leaving it.

[أخوكم]

In case you don't know, your country doesn't have an obligation to kill apostate. and Abulkasem didn't say it's a choice at all.

[BStranger]

In case you don't know, your country doesn't have an obligation to kill apostate. and Abulkasem didn't say it's a choice at all.
مشاركتي و الله اعلم احتوت على الجواب، ارجو مراجعتها ان اخطأت.

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

You said that you can not anderstand arabic , how could you judje that his reply doesn't answer your question completely
.sis I have Google transtlation but maybe google translation is not perfect

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

Of course you can ask question , but you try to tell that this is not fair as you think so, can you answer my question about contract betwen you and any bank or company, as they tell you : if you agree about our conditions we can make contract,then after agreement ,you tried to refuse what you agreed and say this is not fair, this is the reason I asked you if you really accepted rules of Islame as long as you say that you are muslem because this means acceptance of all rules , when you decided to be muslem

If I'm a Muslimah I should accept all rules of Islam definitely; I'm not denying this. I asked question because I do ''not'' know either it's an obligation/copmulsory to kill an apostate or not. Because different people/Muslims say different things. And I want answer from someone to prove his/her arguments by giving any reference from Islamic history or Hadith but they just talk without giving me any reference. So how can I acknowledge? Should not I say I don't know & should not I ask about it?

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

A translation for the 3# and 2# replies
About apostasy, it's a divine punishment authenticated by Hadith from the prophet - pace be upon him - " kill who change his religion -Islam-". This doesn't contrast with the verse " There is no compulsion in religion" becouse the verse means not to force people to become muslims... this is the most that we can get from the verse. However, stating that one will leave Islam is a betrayal to God and his prophet. So its not the same with a Kafir who didnt become muslim, The Kafir who didnt become muslim will not be forced to do so. The verse says next "Truth stands out clear from Error" the truth is clear, we dont have to force people to embrace it. But who was a muslim and then betrayed God by apostasy, God has punished him to protect the muslim community from that so it wont be Fetna -strife- for others. God says in the holy Quraan "The strife is worse than murder" to strife people form the religion is worst than murder.. And it is a protecion for that individual too, because he will think a thousand times before doing that and will rethink many times so he will be close to actual repent. But this punishment - apostasy- is not an immediate punishment, it differs for each one. He will be convinced to the truth by evidenecs before that and will be given all the kinds of evidences and proofs. If he insisted on the Kofir he will be killed.. assuming that there will be a debated that he will not be convinced is a false assuming because the truth and its evidences are clear, what might happen is stubbornness and arrogance.
For example: America or any country dont force people to have its citizenship, but once someone have it he will be required to several things, so if he betrayal the country he will be killed or he will lose his citizenship as punishment. Therfore, there is no analogy between entering a religion and leaving it.


Ok. Thanks. I have understood.
About apostasy, it's a divine punishment authenticated by Hadith from the prophet - pace be upon him - " kill who change his relgion Islam
But one Muslim scholar quote a Hadith form Abu Daod 38:4345 to prove killing an apostate is not copmulsory he said Prophet Muhammad left an apostate without killing. What do you say about this Hadith??

[lightline]

sister The Punishment for Apostasy is killing not because we want him return to Islam
its because he committed the worst sin in Islam which is infidelity
as Muslims we all agree whoever commits adultery his/her Punishment is killing also the magician or the witch NOT the illusionist I mean a real magician who does black magic or whatever to harm people his/her Punishment will be killing also the murderer his Punishment is killing as well as the spy his/her Punishment is execution

Therefore all of them we agree that their Punishment is execution however their crimes are not worse than apostasy

so sister what do you think will be the Punishment for apostasy ? since its worse than adultery and spys who betrayed their own country and murdering and magic

[أبو القـاسم]

All scolars of Islam judge by killing a person who committed kofr but after enough discussion with him, according to the hadith of Bukhari whish is autheticated 100% .regarding what u have said , it means that Profet ( ص ) might leave some cases becuse He has the right to forgive people who curse him for instance ,while we dont have this right

[أميمة]

[LEFT]http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?hl=&q=cache:5036OkytFOEJ:http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php%3F3392-%25C8%25ED%25C7%25E4-%25C7%25E1%25D3%25E4%25C9-%25E1%25DA%25DE%25E6%25C8%25C9-%25C7%25E1%25E3%25D1%25CA%25CF-%25C7%25E1%25E6%25C7%25D1%25CF%25C9-%25DD%25ED-%25C7%25E1%25DE%25D1%25C2%25E4-%25C7%25E1%25DF%25D1%25ED%25E3-%25CF-%25DA%25E3%25C7%25CF-%25C7%25E1%25D4%25D1%25C8%25ED%25E4%25ED%2B%D8%AD% D8%AF+%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B1%D8%AF%D8%A9+%D8%A7%D8%A8% D9%88%D8%AF%D8%A7%D9%88%D9%88%D8%AF&rlz=1B7GGHP_en-GBSA452SA453&safe=active&ct=clnk[/LEFT

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

.regarding what u have said , it means that Profet ( ص ) might leave some cases becuse He has the right to forgive people who curse him for instance ,while we dont have this right
What wre the causes? We will do the same as Prophet peace b upon him did , willn't we??

[أميمة]

Hadith form Abu Daod 38:4345 to prove killing an apostate is not copmulsory he said Prophet Muhammad left an apostate without killing.
this is a wrong reference , did you find it yourself ?can you give the right one

[أميمة]

Assalamualaikum wa rahmatullahe wa barakatu!

As we know the cost of apostasy is death penalty. I want to know, is it obligatory to put to death an apostate? There is verse in Qur'an which states ''There's no compulsion in religion'' . And in case, a learned Muslim is supposed to discuss or debate on religion & wants to try to get the truth, but in the end he may decide t
o apostatize, may find Islam illogical; would it be an obligation to kill him still if there's no any compulsion in religion i.e Islam?
[LEFT](would it be an obligation to kill him still if there's no any compulsion
in religion i.e Islam?)
Do you still believe that this is not fair? If not please confirm that
Also please answer my question about contract

[أبو القـاسم]

What wre the causes? We will do the same as Prophet peace b upon him did , willn't we??
Listen my sister Mariya, we have very clear Hadith as mensioned previously , when some one curses Messenger peace be upon him ,then it's His own right to forgive him according to his estimation( if He is stil alive)...you can forgive any one if he attacks u , but u dont have the right to forgive him if he attacks me for example ,,so how about Profet peace be upon him?! we are commanded in religion to follow his orders ..not to follow what we like
Almighty Allah said : (It is not for a believing man or a believing woman when Allah and his messenger have decided a matter, that they should have any choice about thier affair .And whoever disobays Allah and his Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error ) that was a valuble translation for the general meaning of the verse (Al Munta AL Islami eddition) ..may Allah guide us and you to obey Allah SW immediately

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

[LEFT]
(would it be an obligation to kill him still if there's no any compulsion
in religion i.e Islam?)
Do you still believe that this is not fair? If not please confirm that

No . Now I get as someone told me there is no any copmulsion in religion for non-Muslims & if a Muslim commit any crime he/she would be treated under Islamic lwas whether this crime is adultary or bibery or apostasy or any crime.
but I'm still not clear eihther it' an obligation or not to kill an apostate or not. I mean to say I'm not ckear if an apostate leave unkilled it would be a sin or not.

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

Hadith form Abu Daod 38:4345 to prove killing an apostate is not copmulsory he said Prophet Muhammad left an apostate without killing.
this is a wrong reference , did you find it yourself ?can you give the right one

wait sis I try to post the whole Hadith.

[ابو علي الفلسطيني]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

before killing an apostate he will be asked to repent and if so he won't be killed but if he insisted to be an apostate he would be killed

[أميمة]

As was sent to you by Abu Alkasem bother above :All scolars of Islam judge by killing a person who committed kofr but after enough discussion with him, according to the hadith of Bukhari whish is autheticated 100% . Also ref. which I enclosed above is very clear, Iwould like to tell you as well that Muslem have to accept all the rules of Islam, as we strongly belive that Almighty ALAH is Fair in His judgment
"إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَظْلِمُ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ وَإِن تَكُ حَسَنَةً يُضَاعِفْهَا

وَيُؤْتِ مِن لَّدُنْهُ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا"

"ALLAH CAUSES NOT ANY INJUSTICE, EVEN TO THE SLIGHTEST EXTENT.

IF A GOOD DEED IS DONE, ALLAH WILL DOUBLE ITS MERIT,

AND HE WILL GIVE OF HIS OWN A GREAT REWARD."

the Holy Quran in Surah 4: Ayah 40 ,.
Muslem does not deal with ALLAH as he deals with humans ,we do not have the wrigt to discuse our Cretor
Surah 112: Ayahs 1-4:



قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

"SAY HE IS ALLAH THE ONE, ALLAH NEEDED BY ALL

HE BEGETS NOT NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN

AND THERE IS NONE THE LIKE OF HIM."

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

Hadith form Abu Daod 38:4345 to prove killing an apostate is not copmulsory he said Prophet Muhammad left an apostate without killing.
this is a wrong reference , did you find it yourself ?can you give the right one
I didn't find the reference myself . I just listen to the lecture of that Islamic scholar. Now I too dont find it.

[واسطة العقد]

whats your first language ?

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

[, Iwould like to tell you as well that Muslem have to accept all the rules of Islam, as we strongly belive that Almighty ALAH is Fair in His judgment
"إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَظْلِمُ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ وَإِن تَكُ حَسَنَةً يُضَاعِفْهَا

وَيُؤْتِ مِن لَّدُنْهُ أَجْرًا عَظِيمًا"

"ALLAH CAUSES NOT ANY INJUSTICE, EVEN TO THE SLIGHTEST EXTENT.

IF A GOOD DEED IS DONE, ALLAH WILL DOUBLE ITS MERIT,

AND HE WILL GIVE OF HIS OWN A GREAT REWARD."

the Holy Quran in Surah 4: Ayah 40 ,.
Muslem does not deal with ALLAH as he deals with humans ,we do not have the wrigt to discuse our Cretor
Surah 112: Ayahs 1-4:



قُلْ هُوَ اللَّهُ أَحَدٌ اللَّهُ الصَّمَدُ لَمْ يَلِدْ وَلَمْ يُولَدْ وَلَمْ يَكُن لَّهُ كُفُوًا أَحَدٌ

"SAY HE IS ALLAH THE ONE, ALLAH NEEDED BY ALL

HE BEGETS NOT NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN

AND THERE IS NONE THE LIKE OF HIM."[/LEFT]
Indeed true. Jazakallah for giving me all this. I'm not denying all these facts . What I'm saying sis is just that different scholars's opinions are different on this issue some say it's an obligation some say it's not , to kill an apostate. That is why I'm confused . & I know if an apostate is put to death it would be okay as Allah has allowed it . But I don't know if an apostate is left alive it would be a sin or not

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

whats your first language ?
Irrelevant.

[واسطة العقد]

didnt say it is

[ليندا الموحدة بالله]

Yes if the apostate is still not convinced he is put to death in an Islamic state ruled under Shariah . There is consensus on this view.
There is no compulsion if you are a non-muslim. Once you have become a Muslim you are legally accountable for your actions such as stealing, drinking wine, committing adultery etc.Allah knows best.

[أميمة]

All scolars of Islam judge by killing a person who committed kofr but after enough discussion with him, according to the hadith of Bukhari whish is autheticated 100%
As told by brother Abu Alqasem
This is not the case for someone who is silent and does not make (fetna) in society , if some one knowes that he will be killed he will not make any problems and will not try to affect others (by net or news papers or T.V. or any way). in society

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

This is not the case for someone who is silent and does not make (fetna) in society , if some one knowes that he will be killed he will not make any problems and will not try to affect others (by net or news papers or T.V. or any way). in society
So do you mean to say an apostate would not be put to death if he don't create fitnah, right??
And what is the punishment for a female apostate. some Muslims say , '' The female apostate will be given life imprisonment.'' is it true?

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

.



This question was answered in the video

I'll watch in shaa Allah - jazakallah

[أبو القـاسم]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! the Video is Not right

[أبو القـاسم]

being non muslim is itself fetna..not as u said ..one of meanings of fetna is that it disturbs the belief of ignorant peopl in society and causes alot of good peopl to be confused..etc

[أبو القـاسم]

http://elazhar.com/okdown1/islam-guide.pdf

plz sis forget about this issue now..and kindly read this fantastic book

[lightline]

hope did post that video wasn't me :wallbash:

[أميمة]

In all "Abu Dawod " ref. there is no such this , and this means that this scholar is layer ,Is he Adnan Ibraheem?????

[Maria al-Qibtiyya]

Ok . i close this issue. killing an apostate is okay & don't worry i believe in Allah & acknowledge all His rules after all I'm a muslimah. And I was just asking a ''question'' it didnt affect on my belief. The scholar maye a liar. May Allah keep save all of us from such fake scholars.
I'd like to quote a Hadith: Abu Shamah had narrated, via the Sanad of Abi Ziyad bin Hudayr, saying:


"Omar said to me: Do you know what destroys Islam? I said, No! He said: A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray".
Wassalam.

[مسلم أسود]

Thank god that you're convinced . But I have a question :

Are you the same girl I told to come here on YouTube ?

[واسطة العقد]

اخي مسلم اسود: كلمة جودنيس ﻻ يجوز لنا كمسلمين قولها :):

[مسلم أسود]

أستغفر الله ! تم التعديل .

[مسلم أسود]

Oh yeah . That's me

[واسطة العقد]

الاخت قالت انها اقتنعت و طلبت إغلاق الموضوع.

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please if you know any atheists friends tell them to come here