:-)

Hi Mr,,,, ehm.... With the coin sign (or whatever it is) o
It is nice that Quran says world is a globe. But, what you maybe don't know is that even long before Quran there were ideas like that. A Greek mathematician named Eratosthenes even calculated the size of the earth, by using the angle of the sun shadow falling down on earth at two different places, in what today is Egypt. And he was very near the true number. He calculated that the circle around earth was about 38 500 km (if I remember correct) while the truth is around 40 000 km. Very impressing and this happened l don't remember the exact year, but let's say about 1000 years before Mohammad. and the Quran. 0
I am sure there are many correct things in Quran like in every religious book, but it does not make it spectacular in any way. Is it true that some versus starts with "There is no God..."? It should have stopped there. That would differ it from other religious books and make it very interesting for people of that time who almost all believed in one God or another, because they did not know better.
Best regards from Charlie

Hi again Mr Ashbely, ( I see you are Mr coin) 0
We think, stones don't. We differ. But what I mean by soul is something that will keep our mids alive after we are dead. I don't see how are mind would live on after death, so I don't believe in soul. Still we think while we are alive. But after we die, we think just as much as we did before we were born. That means we don't think at all. Not so fun maybe, but life is not what we want it to be, but what it is in fact. 0
About Einstein, he said that material is just a form of energy. A huge package of energy. His formula E=mc2 explains the relation between them two, for someone who is better at mathematics than I am ;-) Our minds contain of a huge number of electrical signals in our brain. When it is damaged after we die, you can not restore it. It is gone forever, weather we like it or not. Scary but true. That is why people want to believe in religion. It promises something better than reality does. We are often weak to fall for someone who offers us something better. You are free to choose, but I prefer to live in reality and I hope some of you will have courage to make that choice as well. Best regards from Charlie

I need to make a break here, but I will work on later. Thanks for your questions and for reading my messages. Talk to you later guys. Best regards from Charlie :-) o.#

HI again Ashbely,

Who let you alive? What do you mean with that? Who has to let you alive? Who let alive every microbe, or every insect at the world? You think there is a God deciding about who will be born and who not? What a huge job to decide about everyone of the billions and billions of insects. Is he sitting there thinking for each case,... shall this bug have babies? Ok... I let him get them today... How many.. I give him 256.... "Next one please". Very fun....
Why are you not born some other year? Another fun question. Because you are born in the year...maybe 2004, because you think like a child sometimes...hehehe. But I don't understand what difference it would make if you were born another year... 0
You say you don't want to live if your life has no meaning. I want. We have to find a meaning and I feel sorry for people who can not find a meaning by themselves. Get a hobby or something. Try to learn about real world. Try to help people around you to have a happier life. Fight for human rights. Fight to protect the environment so that your children will live in a better world. There are so many ways to find happiness. Buddhist say that real happiness is when you learn how to be happy by helping others. I am not a Buddhist, but I like that idea. There are nice things in Islam too and other religions aswell. Life is very exciting. Find a challenge that will inspire you. If really religion is your only inspiration to live, than you have problems that day when you realize there is no God. Find your strength in real world. It is worth living in reality too :-) 0
I am truly sorry about your brother who died before he was born. Life is not fair. It often strikes against those who least deserve it. In this case a completely innocent child and people like you and your family who I believe did not deserve it either. No one deserves to die. It happens anyway. What is meaning with that? No meaning at all. There is no meaning with life beside life itself. If it works, life goes on. If not, it stops living. No higher power behind that. Best regards from Charlie

Hi Mr.... long mail... Please guys make it a habit to sign your messages so I know who I speak to. I know you see your names in Arab letters, but I don't see that. I will understand while reading who it is, but please make it easier for me. 0

Back to the message. Wow... so long... I hope I can reply a bit shorter ;-) o
Well I am sure, if there was one single evidence that God existed, than it would have been shown everywhere and to everyone. I would not need to read what all believers did write. And an evidence would convince something very close to 100% of the population (there are even people who don't believe that humans landed on the moon and people who believe Elvis is alive, so maybe we would not reach 100% anyway) That is why I am sure there can not be any evidence. I would win a bet, right? 0 On the contrary there are evidences that Evolution works. We use it to change species by ourselves. We don't need God to do it for us. The main reason why some people still believe in God is that they simply want to do it. It is a nicer idea. 0
About the son and the book and God and the world. It is not that I don't believe in God because I did not see him creating the world. I did not see my mother give me a birth, but I believe she did because it is VERY likely. I did not see Napoleon loose the battle at Waterloo, but I believe it because it is likely that he did. I did not see Pluto but I believe it exists out there. It is VERY likely id does. But the idea of God is only likely if you choose to believe what you want to believe in. God is not likely. He is extremely unlikely and therefore I need a better "evidence" than "How can something exist if not created by a God?" I know evolution works while religion says, everything was created by god and Animals did not evaluate, but were created as they are. This is wrong . What else do you need to hear? 0
#As I told before. If religions would include evolution in the creation and say "God stated it all and started the evolution of species", than it would be more difficult for me or anyone else to debate against such religion. But religion does not say that. It says God created the species as they are right now. If holy books are wrong, than they are not holy at all. 0
You claim that creation of species is POSSIBLE. Well, that is maybe possible for science in the future. But for a single force that needs to be created by itself and create complete world with millions of species + everything else, that is EXTREMELY IMPOSSIBLE. We haven't seen anyone do that and we will never see it either. It simply does not make sense if you are honest to yourself. 0
About Darwin. I will try make it even shorter than your reply. It is not just not important in what he believed. It is not even important if he ever so said "I was wrong", which he of course never did. He showed us the idea how species evaluate and that can not be taken back, not even by him. Because we see the evidences in real. He is not a prophet whose words we blindly trust in. He is a human who showed us the way to the water in the dessert. If he denies it later, the water will still be there. Evolution is not accepted because " a prophet said it exists", but because we know it works in real. We use its principals to change the species. We follow the evolution throughout the past of the earth, by looking and fossils and we the genetics has shown why it works.0
What I meant by comparing Darwin's work with Quran is that Darwin's work would have been done by someone else if he was not born while Quran or Bible if you want so, would never been written if Mohammad or Jesus never were born (whoever wrote the book itself). You can ignore this comment, because this is just my opinion that I impossibly can prove.0
#About Oxford. I did not show you the site as an evidence that Darwinism is correct. I showed it because some people here deny that science admits Darwin's teaching. That was a good way to show those claims are false. Only that. Don't blame me for replying in a best way for a false statement that others do here. The site is not an Evidence for evolution, but an evidence for the scientific view at that topic.0
Evolution could be included in the religion, but the problem is that it is not! Any religion that would include all modern scientific discoveries would be difficult to debate agains. But the false facts in religios teaching makes it difficult for you guys to defend it. This is a reply to your claim about the surgery and the fortune. I already talked about this, so I will not prolong it.0
To my son... you know how I will prove him if he is too stupid to believe in something that is very likely? I would do the same thing with the book some other day in the same situation and record everything with a hidden video camera. Than I show him the movie. Is that good enough, or is he so stupid to not believe in what he sees? o
If he still does not believe, than I should send him to a doctor I think ;-) 0

Finally, I understand you can not reply every day. We all have our lives to live beside this forum. But see how I have. I have now 4-5 people writing quite long or sometimes very long messages. It is tiering, but also very interesting. I try my best. It takes a lot of my time, but I enjoy it. I have full respect that you can not be here all the time and I hope you all understand me if I am sometimes slow to reply, or some day do not reply at all. Best regards from Charlie :-) 0

Hi again Ibn Alsunnah,0
To put your question in some other way, you ask me if there is eternity. Am I right? Due to Einstein and the energy that can not be lost or gained, I have to admit that maybe eternity is possible. But, I can not be sure. We are talking about a cosmological problem at the edge of what science knows today. I would not claim that I have a good answer here. I am not sure. If you are, and can show it, than you should be working at NASA ;-) o Best regards from Charlie :-) o

a little point here: when i say insane (the evolution) i say it because i cant believe in randoomness and coinsidence, like you when you dont believe in god (same idea), is not because i'am religious, but open-minded... so....sorry,

*when i say; that "thing" is denied by scientist i dont say 100% of them deny it.. so let's make it clair... ok?

let's go back...

اقتباس:

---

We are talking about numbers far more than there are stars in the universe, or something like that. If you spread a pot of sand at the floor, the peaces will never fall all in exactly the same position to each other. Nothing strange with that.

---

ok, and when i say that : evolution can not and well not give us the answer of the formation of a single protein by chance you reject it!, so why, you still talking about it, like we took an book, and we go trrought the final chapter trying to understand the whol hystory!! so, i think, you must think about it,

اقتباس:

---

Many different species could have "invented " such an easy thing as the holes in the bones independently, just like different species invented the flight. It is not insane. It is very logical

---

invented? how invent here, the creature, the evolution process, how is the inventor here?

so.. can you answer me, how can flies, or what ever you want from insect have the great systeme of flying, before
the dinausors have it..

i wait your answer...


ahmed

HI again Ibn Alsunnah,

My head is heavy and I am getting tired, but it is difficult to stop this intresting debate. Damn, the stupid internet had an error ans I lost the message that was almost finnished... so i have to rewrite it :-( o
Anyway, I will just concentrate on few things here and skip the topics where I feel we are stuck. 0
Time is usually being considered as a 4th dimension by the way. Than it is easy to understand it.0
Energy in the cable is everywhere in it, but only when when the power is switched on. It is like a river that is moving. but the material itself is not moving in the cable. It is a wave of electrons going through the material that usually is copper or aluminium. I am not a physician to give you a nicer explanation. What was your pint here? 0 I will continue in next message because I need to copy some of your text and last time I did it, i lost the whole message. I don't want to risk it again.... to be continued... o

The question
Who Created God
?
Muslim: God is the Creator and the creator cannot be created so the question is wrong
You: Wait here I will say the same about the universe. The universe cannot be created and the question is wrong
Muslim: No Because the universe is not a creator. If you think that the universe is a creator then please point to this ability in the universe to create
The universe according to atheists is just matter and energy and everything is controlled by physical laws
So can these rules create themselves\
?

Why can not a creator be created? How can something exist if it is not created? You talk about creator that must be a lot more advanced than anything in the universe and you say he just appeared from nothing!? 0
Ok. if I buy your explenation that such an advanced creature can exist without being created than it is far more easy to understand that the material can exist without creation. We have the evidence that is exists even, but we have no evidence that would make it even likely that God exists.
You ask about the ability of the universe to create. I just say Evolution. I also say chemical processes. I also say radioactivity. I say nuclear reactions. They all go on out there and here on eart. Why? Can you even imagine anything existing without any rules? I mean anything... sand in the dessert, air, or water.... or sounds, or whatever you want. Can it exist without any rules at all? It is not even possible to imagine that it can. And since we have something than it follows the natural rules, and by the time organize itself without any God steering it. 0 If you accept this than you took a first step to understand that material can organize by itself without any god and you took a first step to understand how universe works. No need to complicate things with a God.
And finally why are you asking me if natural laws can create themselves? Why are you not asking if God can create himself or create natural laws? Be critical to yourself when making a question. Best regards from Charlie#

Hi Ahmed, I used the words "invented" with the signs " before and after it. It means I don't mean literally that someone invented it. I just used the word to simplify the language. I thought everyone understood that, but i was obviously wrong.0

About the flying insects. I don't understand what is the problem. No one ever claimed that it should not be that way. Many species of animals "invented" - you see the signs?- the ability to fly independent from the other group. Bats also fly and they did not origin from birds at all. 0
Would be nice if someone of the other Muslims here would help me to reply some messages that even a Muslim see that they are wrong, like this with "invented". Some kind person could have helped and explained to you Ahmed what symbols "" mean. I would have appreciated that.0
Best regards from Charlie

Hi Charlie
I am sorry that you lost what you wrote previously
I know it is frustrating
My whole point about understanding and visualizing is that not every understandable point is visualized
A simpler example infinity

About the question Who created God, I told you that you may not appreciate the answer at this point
To answer this :

اقتباس:

---

Why can not a creator be created? How can something exist if it is not created?

---

I didn't claim that God created himself or that he came out of nothing
We need to proceed with our original discussion


A quick comment on

اقتباس:

---

You ask about the ability of the universe to create. I just say Evolution. I also say chemical processes. I also say radioactivity. I say nuclear reactions.

---

What about these rules themselves
?
You think that if we believe in a creator this means that we refuse the cause and effect principle
?
and this is completely wrong

اقتباس:

---

We have the evidence that is exists even, but we have no evidence that would make it even likely that God exists

---

That is what we are proving right now

The important point is
1- "Eternal" as a concept is not rejected
2-

اقتباس:

---

Do you think that an infinite chain of causes and events is possible
?
Please let the answer be either No ( then I will understand that you understood my arguments) or Yes it can happen because of such and such

---

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah

"", "i know what you mean dont overestimate yourself ...friend..., i feel some "upperlook here

dont wast your time to teach me the meaning of symbols...ok..?

when i talk about insect...:33: i talk about your theory evolution: you say that dinosaurs evolved into birds, by two way (evolution theory):

# 1--- : cursial theory: that the dino make a simple decision, is to run with high speed to fly from earth to sky....:confused: (denied by a couple of darwinist [U]evolusionists[/U, cuz is more insean that we can imagine...] )

# 2---: arboreal theor : that the dino. jumps from an branch to other branch,why... to catch flies... and with that the dino. evolved their ability and..then we have the creature named bird...

so, my question here, its about the second theory, how flies acquired the (evolved) the systeme of flying before dyno.

like i said i wait a response from you


ahmed

3rd: this theory have more probleme than that, for exemple, history: the claimed ancetor of birds ( imean, the dino. that have the similars propretises "superficially" with the present bird, appered before 80 to 85 Millions years ago, and the most old bird until now appears before 150 millions years ago?!

ahmed

Dear Charlie
Don't hurry in answering my question
Just go and have some sleep and think of it deeply tomorrow morning
Think of everything and see if the logic flows or not
What is important for me that you get convinced
And I hope you would put aside your emotional ideas and pre assumptions
That is why I tried to my best to put aside any emotional evidence during the discussion

Ibn Alsunnah

hi dear charlie
you said

اقتباس:

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But what I mean by soul is something that will keep our mids alive after we are dead. I don't see how are mind would live on after death

---

you don't see because you can't imagine so you can't think about the live after death because your mind and my mind and all minds of people weak can't imagine that like the eyes is weak can't see the cell or see the far star and galaxy unless we use the telescope or microscope .

you said

اقتباس:

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I don't believe in soul. Still we think while we are alive. But after we die, we think just as much as we did before we were born. That means we don't think at all

---

are you sure that there is not a live before we born ?????\

maybe we were a live but we cant remember because the brain and destroyed so the memory distroyed this is what the buddism say

u can not prove in any way that there is not a life before we born and you cannot prove in anyway that there is not a life after death

so don't say i'm sure 100% there is not a god or life after death

you said

اقتباس:

---

Our minds contain of a huge number of electrical signals in our brain. When it is damaged after we die, you can not restore it. It is gone forever

---

when the antenna is damaged , thats mean the radio or tv or any data wave is damaged and gone forever !!!!

this is the first time i know that http://www.kalemasawaa.com/vb/images/smilies/p016.gif

to be cont...........

you said

اقتباس:

---

You think there is a God deciding about who will be born and who not?

---

yessssss because nothing can know my personality

my dad and my mom get a married and have a baby

but they know who i'm ???????

they know my software ( soul) in this hardware ( body)

i can to beget a child has black skin or white
i will get married from black girl or white

but can i know her or his personality i can't and you can't and every human can't do that

if we are a intelligence creatures can't know this personality of that human

how can the chance know that

and you know the chance is less intelligence than human ????????????

you said

اقتباس:

---

But I don't understand what difference it would make if you were born another year

---

yes you don't understand because your mind is weak and this equation is far and a far than the mind ability .

the different between i was born in this year or that year is maybe i didn't exist is not born anyway
why i'm born who know me who know my personality

the chance i don't think so , i'm sure the chance don't know what is the chance


to be cont...........

you said

اقتباس:

---

You say you don't want to live if your life has no meaning. I want. We have to find a meaning and I feel sorry for people who can not find a meaning by themselves. Get a hobby or something. Try to learn about real world. Try to help people around you to have a happier life. Fight for human rights. Fight to protect the environment so that your children will live in a better world. There are so many ways to find happiness

---

if my life is without meaning the life is without meaning this is the truth

help people today tomorow they will day like me what is the benefits to help thim if there is any benefits like a money or interests why i will help thim

but in religion we help thim even god for give us for god make us in heven

but without religion and holy goals i will not help any body i will be like shark or snik

you said friend we must to fight for enviroment ????

we know that after millions year the sun will bomb and collapse the solar system

so if there is not any meaning from this life so let me interesting and i don't care by the next generation the important thing is myself only
this is the case of athiest

but in islam prophet mohammed ( peace up on to him) said

if you life in the last day and see the doomsday coming don't let the farm the earth
he said you must to learn from cradle to grave


with my best regards

your friend ###############ashbely########

the Hadith ( sayings of the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ) of the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him in other way to be more understood

اقتباس:

---

if you life in the last day and see the doomsday coming don't let the farm the earth

---

the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him says;

When doomsday comes, if someone has a palm shoot in his hand , he should plant it.

other Hadith:
he says:
“There is none amongst the believers who plants a tree, or sows a seed, and then a bird, or a person, or an animal eats thereof, but it is regarded as having given a charitable gift [for which there is great recompense].” [Al-Bukhari, III:513].


also


There is no one among the believers who plants a tree, or sows a seed, and then a bird, or a person, or an animal eats thereof, but it is regarded as having given a charitable gift [for which there is great recompense]. (Hadith)

dear charlie

sorry to tell u this message

i should to stop here

for many reasons

my brothers will continue with u

i hope you know the truth

your friend ashbely

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

Looks like we are getting stuck with the logical thinking with what comes before Cn... the reason is that we can not know what happened before BB. Was there a universe before it, or did it all start there? If we look at the cosmic egg (as some call the thing that exploded at BB) we don't know what it really contained. The only thing that we know that can contain so much materia at one single place is a black hole. However this must have been a really huge one, if it was a black hole. But the problem here is that we don't know any way for a black hole to explode. This is beyond what science knows today. We know conditions in a black hole are extreme. Even the electrons and protons are crushed and the density can maybe be unlimited. Maybe when a black hole grows to this enormous dimension like the cosmic egg was, maybe there is a way for it to explode. Probably the conditions are extreme, even compared to ordinary sized black holes. This is of course just a speculation and so far impossible to test
This can sound like a weakness of science, but in fact it is it's strength. The science have no pressure to have all the answers, but accepts the facts that are proven. Darwinism is not a theory anymore, although many try to use this word, that has been used initially, even by Darwin himself

Back to the discussion between a fahter and a son. Did you think discussion between a Muslim and an Atheist could sound like this: 0
Muslim: Who created the life? 0
Atheist: It was not created. It evaluated from simple life to more complex.
Muslim: I can not see that
Atheist: Of course you can not see, because it goes to slowly to be seen in real time, but evolution had billions of years time to work since the earths "birth" 0

I am sure you would understand that... or am I wrong? A boy would understand that and so would my son. 0

Now I will continue with other mails and come back to other of your messages. Sorry I am delayed, but there is a lot to answer.

Best regards from Charlie :-) 0#

Dear Charlie,

اقتباس:

---

Looks like we are getting stuck with the logical thinking with what comes before Cn

---

No I am not asking what caused the universe to exist. I mean it is not the intend of our discussion to explore the properties of such matter, Was it Energy, Was it elementary particles, Was it a material which we never investigate
All this is not important
What is important that there is a cause which caused the universe to exist
Lets assume that its name is C1

اقتباس:

---

This can sound like a weakness of science, but in fact it is it's strength. The science have no pressure to have all the answers, but accepts the facts that are proven.

---

Dear Charlie
I am not against science so you don't have to defend the status of science
:):

About the dialogue between the Muslim and the Atheist, this is not related to the origin of the universe,as you said the muslim is asking about the origin of life and we are not talking about that right now
:):

I feel that everything converges to the same question

Do you think that an infinite chain of causes and events is possible
?
Please let the answer be either No ( then I will understand that you understood my arguments) or Yes it can happen because of such and such

This is my only question Charlie, I don't care the "nature" of this cause which originated our universe.

Thank you
Ibn Alsunnah

Hi Ahmed

I have no upperlook (as you said). Maybe I feel upperlook when talking about evolution against creation, but this is because I feel so sure about what I talk. As human being, or in any other way, I don't feel that upperlook, but I respect you as all other people. Without the respect, there is no way to have a good conversation. The reason why I explained the symbols " " is simply because you really seemed to not have understood how I used the word "invented" 0

Back to the topic. I still don't understand why do you see it as a problem that insects did fly before flying reptiles and birds? 0 Evolution is not like a straight line where some abilities that are "invented" necessarily have to appear at the most advanced species. If we look at the evolution and the species it would more look like a huge tree, where each leaf presents a species that is a alive today. The branches can show their way of evolution and two leafs near each other would be closer related than those at distant branches. The higher evaluated species are closer to the top of the tree, and more simple species lower. But there is nothing that says that a "leaf at the bottom of the tree can not have wings", but only the one near the top. Or, did I misunderstand your question? 0#
Bets regards from Charlie, I work on with other questions, as soon as i get time. 0

i think you haven't understood my question, theres a cause for evolusion on "evolution theory", like the flying of dino.

like the theory says: theres two theorys or "causes" what i mean is the cause in the case of insects, knowing that the fossil records deny any transformation, i dont want

to put some liknks here because you dont like links, so let's get it here

اقتباس:

---

3rd: this theory have more probleme than that, for exemple, history: the claimed ancetor of birds ( imean, the dino. that have the similars propretises "superficially" with the present bird, appered before 80 to 85 Millions years ago, and the most old bird until now appears before 150 millions years ago?!

---

you haven't reply to that?.... i wait for it

ahmed

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

I will take your last message before the others, because it seems very important to you in our mutual debate. I take the other messages later. 0
Well, the problem in any case is that I don't know the answer at your question. I can think "yes", or think "no" but what would it mean when I don't know? If you know than please explain how it is and why it is that way.0

Best regards from Charlie

اقتباس:

---

المشاركة الأصلية كتبت بواسطة Charlie1965

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

I will take your last message before the others, because it seems very important to you in our mutual debate. I take the other messages later. 0
Well, the problem in any case is that I don't know the answer at your question. I can think "yes", or think "no" but what would it mean when I don't know? If you know than please explain how it is and why it is that way.0

Best regards from Charlie

---

Simply if the causes can go up to infinity, then our existence condition will never be satisfied right
?
Because for us to be here, our universe should exist but our universe depends on its cause
In another word if this cause,C1, didn't exist then our universe will not exist and we will not exist
But for the cause of our universe,C1, to exist its cause (C2) has to exist
But for C2 to exist C3 should exist
But for C3 to exist C4 should exist
and so on
so our condition of existence will never be satisfied because it depends on an infinite chain of sequential events
This would lead to a paradox
We exist but an infinite chain of causes and effects says that we shouldn't
Therefore, An infinite chain of causes and effects cannot be true
Do you agree then that this chain of causes cannot be infinite
?
Please don't think of the nature of the causes, they are just "conditions which should be verified so that its effect takes place

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah

Hi Ashbely

Your comparing between a broken antenna and a dead person maybe sounds like a good compare, to compare a living creature with a technical product is quite irrelevant. You can not (yet) make a transplantation of a human brain and even if you could, that person would be another person, because our mind is in the brain. 0
#
About life after death. True... I can not be 100 sure, but somewhere around 99% or so. Why? Because if it is like you said that maybe we even lived before, but don't remember it. What could be the meaning of such reborn life? That is equal like someone die and another person being born. That is why I have no reason to believe in that. 0

You say God decides of who will be born. Does he do that only for humans, or even for every microbe and every insect? What a huge job... Maybe it is not so strange he does not have time to make a world better if he is doing that all days long :-P

And you say why are not black child being born by white parents and the opposite. What kind of question is that? This is basic in Evolution that kids get many of their parents abilities. The don't just have same color, but also similar look and similar abilities. But never exactly the same persons. This is what natural selection uses. The small differences. There is nothing in Darwinism that says two black parents will have a white child sometimes! That would be completely against the teaching. We are talking pure Darwinism here.0

#The reason why you are born one year and not another. What is that? It makes no sense and you sound quite confused there. If it is because problems with the language, than I hope someone can help to make me understand. Don't judge my mind as weak. I think with my own brain and I am in the minority no matter where in the world I am. I hope you understand that it takes some kind of strength to be in that position and not just follow what your own parents and the society you live in says. You may call me stupid, if you think so, but than you have to try talking smarter than me. But don't call me weak. 0

Next thing: If you really mean that you don't want to live if life has no higher meaning, than I don't want to debate with you anymore. I don't want to open your eyes and make you become suicide, or loose the lust to live. I don't want to have you at my conscience. I really mean it. So if you really mean that, than we stop here and I let you live in your fantasy. I really don't care about that, but it is a big shame that so many people preferto live that way. 0

Best regards from Charlie

Hi Ahmed,

Sometimes I don't understand your questions and just skip them. Sorry for that. This is because I have so many things to reply every day so I don't have time enough. Than I skip those that I don't understand and hope they will be repeated in some other way. 0

About the flying insects and the dinos. Please feel free to send me the link that you talk about. Sometimes it is necessary and I think in this case it is. Than I will probably understand the problem- o

About the dinosaurs and the birds. I did not check the exact time of the periods when the dinos and the birds appeared, but I have no reason to mistrust the years 80 and 150 miion of years ago, that you talk about. However i don't see a problem here either. You say "most of the birds" appear at that time, which means (and it is also true) that there were birds before that. The similar construction only means they very likely have the same relative, I say "very likely" because there is something called "convergent evolution". This means two species having similar look because they live in similar way, like swifts and swallows. They are not close related, but both spend most of the time flying (swift almost all the time) and hunting insects. This goes hand in hand and therefore they look similar. This comment should be considered as a side note, because in case of dinosaurs walking on the ground and birds that most of them are flying this can not be the case. There way of living is very different. The similarity in their construction is a sign of same origins. 0
Best regards from Charlie

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

I appreciate your try to simplify the debate, but I still see it got stuck here. Ok, if we talk about C1, C2 C3 as a purely imaginary chain of cause and the effects, than maybe you are right and you want me to just look at it that way (to not involve god or creation at this stage), although you talk about universe and it's cause. Since you talk about it than you already involved it, so don't expect me to play games. We talk about universe and I don't know if this logic can be applied on it. If Einstein is correct that the energy can not be gained or lost and that talks against your point of view. But, I don't want to stop you from going further in this discussion, so I say... ok.... Let's say you are right. There is a cause. So, feel free to go further with this and let's see where we will end up. 0

Best regards from Charlie

sorry about this, can not by helped, if you can't understand my question.....

now you start to eskape from my requested question....

but however theres the links:

http://www.fossil-museum.com/fossils/fosil.php?Id=20594

you can take a look there

theres more and more but that will be fine

Hi Ahmed
I am not escaping from any questions, but some I don't understand. Neither you or me have English as our mother language, so we have to be patient with each other. 0

By the way, why did God make Quran only in Arab and not in English or Chinese? At the time of Mohammad world was still very big and for example native people in America or Australia (for example) had no chance to read it. Did they end in hell because of this? Not really fair in that case. He should have sent Quran to every continent at least ;-) 0

I checked the link you sent me. What exactly did you want me to see in the link? A cat fish that did not change for 50 millions of years? This is not against evolution. Evolution is not a god that is necessarily changing the species. This fish obviously did not need to change. It worked anyway. It was not put to any hard challange by any outer factor. It is not strange that we find most of such species in the sea, where conditions did not change that fast and that hard, like they did on land. 0

Feel free to ask more. I am always glad if I can explain things to you or anyone else, as far as I can. Best regards from Charlie

What question did I not reply, Ahmed? 0

Dear Charlie,

اقتباس:

---

I appreciate your try to simplify the debate, but I still see it got stuck here. Ok, if we talk about C1, C2 C3 as a purely imaginary chain of cause and the effects, than maybe you are right

---

Well this is right for anything because it depends on logic. Even science depends on the same logic

اقتباس:

---

and you want me to just look at it that way (to not involve god or creation at this stage), although you talk about universe and it's cause. Since you talk about it than you already involved it, so don't expect me to play games.

---

I don't want you to look at something against logic. If logic says it is like that then we don't have anything to do except accepting the facts. Remember what you always say about how people follow their parents and don't try to accept the reality?
I ask you to do the same. There is ONE and ONLY ONE common background between us in this discussion which is FACTS. What is driven from basic logic is a FACT.

اقتباس:

---

We talk about universe and I don't know if this logic can be applied on it

---

If we don't apply this logic so what other type of logic can we apply then?
Do you want me to say a part is greater than a whole
and say these are the rules of logic which govern the universe at the very early times?

اقتباس:

---

If Einstein is correct that the energy can not be gained or lost and that talks against your point of view.

---

When Einstein and any other scientists propose a theory, He or she uses the same logic that we use to reason about the experimental results and link it to its causes. Every human being uses this machinery.
So, when Einstein or Lorentz studied the MM experiment, they said ok the experiment gives results which CONTRADICT our equations so lets see how to fix this.
When M. Planck introduced his constant for the first time, he did the same. He was solving the black body radiation problem using thermodynamics and found that the result was strange, the energy radiated from the black body was infinity. So he said this is against LOGIC so we have to fix our understanding.
So to make long story short: The benchmark for every scientist is logic.
Einstein cannot say that energy is eternal forever, specially that his theory breaks before the Planck time.
Usually Scientists don't talk about things which is out scope of matter, But the problem with those who start building and ideology on the top of science, which when removed doesn't leave any trace on the scientific facts themselves
Even if he said so, I will not accept what he says. Remember what I said before if I have a fact and someone came to me and said something which appears to contradict it, I will say wait a minute a fact cannot be falsified, may be what you say has a different meaning, or may be it is not universal as you think.

اقتباس:

---

But, I don't want to stop you from going further in this discussion, so I say... ok.... Let's say you are right. There is a cause. So, feel free to go further with this and let's see where we will end up.

---

Ok, I will continue:
If the chain of causes is not infinite, so it has to be finite, we don't have any option
Remember we said that all the answers to the question: How it all started was:
1-Created from Nothing

And we said this is impossible because it contradicts logic.
2- Some cause created it
May be
3- Eternal
May be but wait this also contradicts logic. Because if we assume that we are now in a certain state, then our state "evolved" ( I bet you love the term) from a previous state and so... and since we agree that everything has a cause so we will end up having infinite chain of causes which are necessary for forming our state right now. And this is impossible.
4-Others
We didn't find anything else

So the ONLY solution is caused by a certain cause

Then we asked the following question:
How many causes can we go to form our universe?
Can this be infinite?
Well no because the chain of infinite causes means that we don't exist.
So, we have to reject this assumption

So we end up with ONLY one possibility:

The set of causes is finite, which means it has a FIRST CAUSE

Lets try to understand some of the properties of the FIRST CAUSE
Lets ask this question:
Can the first cause be converted to a second cause, In a materialistic description: Can its material convert?
Well assume so, then it needs something outside it to cause it to convert, But it is the first cause by definition so this is impossible
And this where you find problems with most religions on earth including ChristianityCorollary 1, where they trapped themselves in a dilemma: How can God be not like the creation ( The father) but at the same time be like the creation ( the son ).
The FIRST CAUSE is different from other causes and events.

The FIRST CAUSE doesn't depend on any other causes ( if it does this means it is not the first cause )

Corollary 2

The FIRST CAUSE is self sufficient

These are all my arguments.
One very important point:
You may ask me to describe this FIRST CAUSE.
My answer is simply: I can't because of corollary 1: The FIRST CAUSE is different from anything which follows it, including our universe so how can I describe something which is not like anything else. I can't say its color is such and such. Why? because in this case I described the FIRST CAUSE as something which emits radiation ( photons ) and this contradicts corollary 1 and 2.

The FIRST CAUSE is GOD.
One of the attributes of God in Islam is the FIRST.
I will cite you some verses from the quran about that:

He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing.
Alhadeed 3

The Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you mates from yourselves, and for the cattle (also) mates. By this means He creates you (in the wombs). There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer

ِAlshura 11

Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)
Alikhlas

I hope Charlie that you will read more about Evolution and see what is true in it from what is false. I don't say that everything in Evolution is wrong. BUT building an ideology over a theory, just to negate the idea of a creator from the equation is unaccepted.
I just want to add another point about "Humanity" , "Helping others" and so....
What are the materialistic definitions of these words??
What is the materialistic meaning of justice?
Try to put a definition like this:
Justice is the force acting on a unit charge to........
This is the only type of a definition that is accepted from an atheist.
I know that you have good things inside you based on what we call in islam the human fetra or you can call it the basic human intuitive.
Actually this is also a prove of GOD.

I hope at the end that you will reconsider your ideas about yourself and your position in this universe. I also hope that you understood more about our faith and if you didn't convert to Islam than at least you know that we have something to say
And at the end it is all your choice and I will end up by a quote from the quran

So remind them (O Muhammad (SAW)) — you are only a one who reminds. (21) You are not a dictator over them — (22)

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah

Dear Charlie
I hope that after you read my previous message, the answer to your question who created God
?
is very obvious
The answer is
God cannot be created because he is the First

Thanks
Ibn Alsunnah

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

Very intresting and long mail. I take it step by step, as you did and I use logic just as you say you do
I jump over the initial part of the message, because I don't disagree there. We have to use logic as far as we can. I jump down to Einstein.0
True that not everything that Einstein calculated can be applied to such extreme conditions that existed at the time for Big Bang and is very difficult to check. It works perfect in our world, but what do we know at that time. So, ok... this is a theory about energy can not be gained or lost. But religions are not even a theory. It is a believe.

Please don't call Evolutions or Darwinism as an Ideology. It is not based on thephy. It was based on theory initially, but today it is accepted and confirmed by science. And we don't talk about "some scientist", but probably nearly 100% of scientists, if you exclude some "scientists" educated in striclty religious schhol that deny all science that talks against god. We have that in other religions too, not just Islam. Darwinism is not an ideology. It is the expenation of how species evaluate and is confirmd by genetics. I am sorry you don't like so much to talk about evoluton as brother Ahhmed does, but if you don't do it you miss a very important evidence against creationism.#
I will answer some of your questions in the long mail later, because i go to eat now and prey to Darwin (hehe... just joking). 0
I jump straight to your last and much shorter mail. You said : 0
The answer is
God cannot be created because he is the First

But this is no solution at all! First you say nothing can be created, from nothing, than you say God appeared from nothing and not just that! Now he created the whole universe from nothing! From one impossible thingyou make two impossible things! Where is the logic you talk about??? And you say that is obvious evidence??? 0
Best regards from Charlie :-) 0

Dear Charlie

اقتباس:

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But religions are not even a theory. It is a believe

---

Well true and false at the same time
True if you mean that prophets didn't claim that this was an idea or a proposal
But false if you mean it is just a blind faith, May be some religions are like that. But not Islam for sure . We can discuss with you everything, Even I can send you one of the transmission chains of how the Quran was transmitted to us. I can send you the huge tree with reciters, back to the prophet (PBUH)
I can tell you how the sayings of the prophet were written. Everything is stored
So, please don't put everything in one bag.

اقتباس:

---

Please don't call Evolutions or Darwinism as an Ideology. It is not based on thephy. It was based on theory initially, but today it is accepted and confirmed by science.

---

Evolution is a materialistic description of the evolution of species. If you accept that nothing is beyond matter, then it is the ONLY solution.

اقتباس:

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And we don't talk about "some scientist", but probably nearly 100% of scientists, if you exclude some "scientists" educated in striclty religious schhol that deny all science that talks against god. We have that in other religions too, not just Islam.

---

Lets say 99% of Scientists
Many of them just accept it based on the media propaganda, and if they don't accept, they will be treated as non-scientific
By the way, I studied Evolution at high school back home ( Egypt). Remember also that we don't have a religious authority in Islam. We have Scholars but still they are not holy or can have this status. I can disagree with a scholar and follow what I feel is true.
Again, Countries in the middle east, where the majority of the population is muslims are governed by secular governments and not as you think in Sweden that we are in the church controlling phase
:):

اقتباس:

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Darwinism is not an ideology. It is the expenation of how species evaluate and is confirmd by genetics

---

One small correction
It is the only materialistic expenation of how species evaluate
Not true that it is confirmed by genetics. The other way happened: Evolution as a theory " evolved" to be consistent with genetics
:):

اقتباس:

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But this is no solution at all! First you say nothing can be created, from nothing, than you say God appeared from nothing

---

No, I didn't say God appeared from nothing. I just said he is the first which is completely different
Remember that to say that an "entity" is eternal is not against logic
:):

اقتباس:

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Now he created the whole universe from nothing! From one impossible thingyou make two impossible things!

---

First let me define "nothing" in this context, Nothing is the opposite of things
Appearing out of nothing is rejected because there is no CAUSE for it. But I am not saying that here. I am saying that the second cause if you want to call it is created by the First cause when the condition of its existence exists
Remember that for a cause which may be an event of the cause that proceeds it, for this cause to exist, a set of conditions should be verified. And these conditions are satisfied by the cause that proceeds it. Get my point
?
Our logic leads us to this point: The second cause is fully determined by the FIRST. But what is illogical is to say that something appears with no cause which is equivalent to say something appeared out of nothing ( Absolutely Nothing

Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
Altur 35

I am sorry that this is very abstract

I am sorry that I can't talk about Darwinism, since it needs me to go and open the books again and I am very busy these days
But, I remember a very good book which is written by an -Anti- Darwinism ( Phillips Johnson).He is the devil to Darwinists
I liked his book
I don't know if you read the book or not
Its name is Darwin on trail
I guess you can find it on the web

At the end as Dr Hossam said: What is the relation between evolution and that God doesn't exist
?
If you go step by step, You should say ok. I believe in God but I still don't believe in any religion.
Then move forward and say, I don't believe in religions because they are against FACTS such as Evolution.
Then lets discuss what is a fact in Evolution and what is just a philosophy
And at the end FACTS will always be accepted

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah

press here

Hi again Ibn Alsunnah

Back to the questions about materialistic point of view. First we have to keep it clear that the pint of view on justice, humanity etc have nothing to do with evidence of god, or evidence for evolution. This is a completely different topic, but I like to talk about it anyway.0

Humanity and helping others is normal to every human society, no matter what you believe in. So it is in the atheistic or materialistic world. I don't see why it would be in other way. We will not be payed back in next life or after death, but that just means our help and generosity is more honest.We don't do it a s a deal with god like "I do this and this and this and therefore you owe me a place in paradise". We do it because we think we can not be happy if seeing people suffer. This is of course an idealistic picture. Like in every society people are often selfish and not doing what they feel is right to do., but this is the problem in every society.0

Justice: I can only talk about my point of view, cause it is not same in the whole secularized world. Well, I am against death penalty, because it can never be right to kill. If people do wrong, there are always background reasons. No one is born evil. If killing a murder would give back the life to his victim, than I would be for it. But it does not work that way. Justice has to be a good example to people. It it is not right to kill, than you make no difference who kills. This person who did it has to be treated like human being, but also prevented to kill again. If necessary, stay protected in a jail whole life with being able to live a human life.#0
For minor crimes, like stealing, there should not be cutting of hands like Sharia says. This is so primitive. And it is also a good sign that Quran was not written by some god than by a human. A god who wants to put humans on try and see what they will do (despite that he already know as you all say) would punish this person when he comes to heaven, or just deny him the heaven. Not tell people to cut peaces of his own creation. 0
#What you call fetra is for me a desperate need to have someone strong at your side. It is a need for power and what could be a greater power than being on same side as the greatest powers of all. It is often used to mislead other people. I would like to citate words from Desmond Tutu, a Catholic priest from South Africa: Your enemies are not Gods enemies. No one has right to say who is gods enemy. I am not Catholic as you know, but I respect this man highly because of many smart things he said. However no one has ever seen this god and no one will ever do it, because it is just an imagination. Yes, it is difficult to prove that something don't exist, but it is quite easy to show mistakes in every religious book. And since there are mistakes, what else evidence do you need that the book is false? A fantastic idea is not just unbelievable but also proven to be false. 0
Yes, Ibn Alsunnah, I learn a lot here and it confirms my suspecting that I had from the start. Some people believe in god simply because they want and because it is very hard to stand against something that all the society you live in is saying. I could put here any evidence at all against god and you would still believe in him. But did you ever ask yourself a question like this: Why are all religions wrong, but only my is true? That was one of my first thoughts. Analyze your own religion like you would analyze the others. You have denied all other religions so you are very near the truth. I can congratulate you there. You just need to reject one more - Islam.0

Best regards from Charlie

Mr Press Here, could you translate to me the post card from Rome?What is written at the flags and around the picture. Best regards, Charlie

اقتباس:

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Your comparing between a broken antenna and a dead person maybe sounds like a good compare, to compare a living creature with a technical product is quite irrelevant. You can not (yet) make a transplantation of a human brain and even if you could, that person would be another person, because our mind is in the brain. 0
#

---

hi again mr charlie

i can to compare between my heart and the pump of water but between my life and another thing like wave no i cant to compare strange !!! anyway

you said

اقتباس:

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You say God decides of who will be born. Does he do that only for humans, or even for every microbe and every insect? What a huge job... Maybe it is not so strange he does not have time to make a world better if he is doing that all days long :-P

---

every microbe every insect? what a huge jop

do think god ability like human ??

you think that because your mind can't imagian how god can do that

but for your information

god created the time so noneed the time to do anything he want



you said

اقتباس:

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And you say why are not black child being born by white parents and the opposite. What kind of question is that? This is basic in Evolution that kids get many of their parents abilities. The don't just have same color, but also similar look and similar abilities. But never exactly the same persons. This is what natural selection uses. The small differences. There is nothing in Darwinism that says two black parents will have a white child sometimes! That would be completely against the teaching. We are talking pure Darwinism here.0

---

no you didn't understand my question

i know why ?

but my question is i can to expect the color or the hair or ...etc of any baby by his father and his mother

but i can't to know his personality in his body like me and you this is big question



you said

اقتباس:

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#The reason why you are born one year and not another. What is that? It makes no sense and you sound quite confused there. If it is because problems with the language, than I hope someone can help to make me understand. Don't judge my mind as weak. I think with my own brain and I am in the minority no matter where in the world I am. I hope you understand that it takes some kind of strength to be in that position and not just follow what your own parents and the society you live in says. You may call me stupid, if you think so, but than you have to try talking smarter than me. But don't call me weak. 0

---

what is that ???

no problem in my language

but didn't understand

i was born in 1982 in aden yemen

why i did'nt born in 1756 paris france

1656,2890,.....etc

why


the big question is


why i born in this life

it is possible to come this life and go without give me a life

why ????

i wish to understand me now

and i don't judge your mind

sorry if u understood my saying mean you

i say the truth our minds

are still weak can't understand all thing in this world and universe

not mean your mind dear !!!


i noted you always say your parents choice

do know who is my father

my father was communist

he lived in ussr ( sovit union)

in from 1973 to 1978

and my uncle esstablished the yemeni socialist party in south yemen from 1967 until 1989

my father was atheists also my uncle

and i live in the book of carl marx and angels and lenin .

this is my truth dear

اقتباس:

---

Next thing: If you really mean that you don't want to live if life has no higher meaning, than I don't want to debate with you anymore. I don't want to open your eyes and make you become suicide, or loose the lust to live. I don't want to have you at my conscience. I really mean it. So if you really mean that, than we stop here and I let you live in your fantasy. I really don't care about that, but it is a big shame that so many people preferto live that way. 0

---

i mean that your believe make the life without meaning

and why you don't want to debate with me

hahahaha

dear friend

i'm read many book of athiesim from charles darwin to dawkins to sarter and other

don't think that i will be athiest in anyday or i will suicide

this life in my body i didn't created so who created me in this life he is only has the right to take my life

and my last word to u dear

i'm not live in fantasy i libe in the truth way

at all

this is my last message to u because as i told u

i can't to continue

for many reasons

my brother ibn alsunnah and doctor husam hamed will continue with u in this debate

nice to meet u dear

realy

i hope to know the truth

your friend ashbely

:ANSmile:

Dear Charlie
I can give you my definition to justice
It is all what God does and order
:):
You cannot say this is wrong by any means

About stealing and cutting hands, these are things in Sharia and has some conditions to be fulfilled before. You just go and look at the last scene in the movie.
ِAnd these are rulings like the law. It is for the sake of the whole community not because of what you said
Whatever your opinion about Capital punishment, cutting hands: It is all your opinion. I cannot force you to change it . But I still consider them as fair and just.
And since there is no "materialistic " definition for justice and since every atheist has his own view of the world then you can't deny others opinions

اقتباس:

---

Yes, Ibn Alsunnah, I learn a lot here and it confirms my suspecting that I had from the start. .

---

Which is let me guess that there is no God
:):

اقتباس:

---

Some people believe in god simply because they want and because it is very hard to stand against something that all the society you live in is saying.

---

We said previously that this is true but still this is not a prove of anything.
People who are born in a socialist country will likely be a socialist
what does that mean
?
Nothing

اقتباس:

---

I could put here any evidence at all against god and you would still believe in him.

---

Well I remember that Dr Hossam asked you to put such an evidence
:):
So please put your evidence

اقتباس:

---

But did you ever ask yourself a question like this: Why are all religions wrong, but only my is true? That was one of my first thoughts

---

Yes I did
If I said for example that I was a Christian and converted to Islam because I am sure that Islam is the true religion would you then think this is great
?
Do I have to change my religion to impress others
?
I was born for muslim parents, but at some age I started asking questions and I found my answers in Islam. Is that strange
?

اقتباس:

---

Analyze your own religion like you would analyze the others.

---

I don't like to go and criticize others. I always try to find excuses for others.
But at the end that doesn't mean I have to leave Islam. Yes I believe that others have corrupted their religion but that doesn't mean that they are my enemies
And I ask God that I can help them as I can to show them the true path.

Anyway, this is very far away from our discussion which I believe came to an end

Actually, I don't know if you in the last message is talking to me or someone else
:):
I gave you my evidence that God exists and at the end you said you are following your parents and criticizing others

Is that your answer to my arguments
???
Anyway, I told you before you have the freewill to accept or refuse

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah