البحث: نوع: المشاركات; عضو: Charlie1965

No not "intelligently designed" it’s perfectly established.
(But of course you don’t know the difference, do you?)
- The only reason I referred to it is because your Muslim fellows did that, and...

B. Specify what misconception you mean I hold which concerns Islam.

Again: there is no intelligent design in Islam at all
- WHAT? Isn’t god all-knowing in the Quran? Isn’t his universe...

A. Here we go again, you must feel really uncomfortable to talk about it if you need to use such a lame excuse. And I can easily use it as well: You don’t have the right to talk about reality,...

A. So you are basically saying I should not speak with you until I think the way you do. WOW. I mean I am astonished you could say something like that. Is this how you lead debates in your home town?...

My response appeared under the BELIEF IN ONE GOD thread.

Since the claims you mentioned lack evidence, I am basically against them all, typically for an atheist/sceptic. Only ignoring that fact allows me to consider them, which I did. Then I heard...

There are no replies concerning my last post - should I move on to the next aspect of our discussion?

So am I.

Actually it is objective to say we don’t know about the situation from before the universe emerged. So it is also unclear when it comes to the laws of physics. And the people who wouldn’t say laws of...

If you make a conclusion that one god exists, then it is logical for you to believe there is one god, obviously.
But if you simply state that the universe is a result of some divine power, this...

I forgot to mention:
In many pagan beliefs gods actually fought against each other and some of those fights had impacts on humans.

Here are your claims:
1. God has to be perfect.
2. A perfect god would make it impossible for other gods to coexist.
3. More gods would struggle on the basis of which one is better/perfect or...

I would love to tear apart each of your arguments separately so the discussion will be clear and brief.

First monotheism vs. polytheism.
You said gods would mention their existence if there were...

I will gladly continue from here:

1st step: the existence of the Creator. => We are here now.
2nd step: the rule we have in this planet.
3ed step: there must be a massage for the Creator to us...

Ok, no problem. You could have just told me.

Tak się składa, kolego, że angielski nie jest i moim ojczystym językiem.
Ale nie przyszło mi jakoś do głowy, żeby pisać do ciebie po polsku, z oczywistych powodَw - Ty po polsku prawdopodobnie nie...

Instead of correcting a message, I posted another one. Sorry for this, guys. The latter one is corrected, the first one can be removed.

.

What is the meaning of this approach? Do you believe it is polite what you are doing?

I managed to decode this and that with a translator.
So, if god created the universe, there are still...

1st of all its not a debate here , it’s up to you to decide for yourself what you should believe in , so concern yourself with your faith not the audience here with me, because I am here just to...

You say repeatedly that you need evidence,
but when you have it on your sight –the existence of the universe that is - as a fact:
you just say we don’t know!!
When you will ؟!!
- It is a...

then Imagine that the universe without Creator is must be more and so blind ,, - You do not have anything
- The universe without elements based on faith should be a default position of everyone,...

There is always an attachment to some authority figure no matter what belief system you have. Athiest as well are not excluded from this rule. Militant athiests for example have their own figures...

Don't talk about the qualities of the universe or logic before you recognize that angels and god don't live in it and have nothing to do with it. And before you realize that your beliefs are based on...

:And I will be factual
The problem you mentioned here - of not being willing to change beliefs/standpoints because of the group and the power of conformism and simply convenience, is proven to have...

I honestly don't know the source of the universe.
I just disregard arguments lacking solid grounds.

But how come you have a problem with the universe creating itself and you don't have even a...

[Computer language also consist of electricity and it works based on physical laws. Does that also mean that it is not designed.? A computer anti-virus would also work to protect the computer by...

DNA is a chemical structure. Everything there is based on chemical processes, which do not require any intelligence. That's it.
Computer codes are codes because we actually programmed them, we gave...

I can understand how MACHINERY is metaphoric. But explain it to me how TEMPLATE is. And explain how previous terms I used are metaphoric, you didn't refer to that at all. You also didn't seem to...

now can you do the same? to describe what is DNA and how proteins get produced?

- No problem.
The first step in new protein synthesis is the building of a molecule of messenger RNA (mRNA) that...

now can you do the same? to describe what is DNA and how proteins get produced?

- No problem.
The first step in new protein synthesis is the building of a molecule of messenger RNA (mRNA) that...

Are you serious? What do you think CAVY derives from??? CAVIAR??

This is getting more and more ridiculous, man.

How are FORM and CREATE metaphors in reference to DNA? Explain how they are symbolic, because I really don't see how they are.
Yes, words often have multiple meanings and it is all about what...

[You kept just saying any phenomena can be discribed differently then other. Well that just stating the obvious. I have been talking all this time about pattern that can be converted into meaningful...

Well it can be true that they meant that we can study DNA and form conclusions to find information.
- It is true.

But what was really meant with the quotations I provided earlier that DNA is...

[Well I did not claim that ANY object will hold information. That is obvious. But we know from our experience what type of things will hold information like books for example. I talked earlier about...

Because you agreed earlier that coded information found from studying some natural phenomenon is still an information.
- yes, but I don't believe any natural phenomenon holds coded information or...

I already agreed here to assume god is a possibility for the sake of this discussion. And I didn't contradict that at all with any argument I gave in this thread.
So I am not talking from the...

I have at least 2 possible scenarios concerning god and your religion which are different from what you believe:
1.
If god is real and he really made contact with Muhammad and other prophets before...

1.
.Even if god exists, it doesn't mean he is ALMIGHTY. We don't even know whether omnipotence is possible. But even if god is really almighty, it means he can do anything, so he should be able to...

Thanks for the answer. :)

So let's assume men of the past, including Muhammad (since he is responsible for deeds which are extraordinary), had contact with some supernatural intelligent power. I...

No, I don't agree. It depends what it is.
Not everything we hear or see is information, it undoubtedly appears in the form of our conclusions/statements once we understand what something is and how...

There are people who already believe in god, but are not members of any religion, and those who treat god as a possibility. I would like to know what you tell them to turn them to your religion. I...

I do.

Yes, we can do it.

It is true, I reject god.
But let's forget about it for the sake of this discussion.
Let's say you guys are so awesome that you really managed to convince me, and from now on I am a god believer or...

There is a reason why people look for other creatures, because they know they are likely to exist, since there is evidence for those.
There is no such likelihood in case of god.

And looking for...

It is not a problem with definitions, it is your misunderstanding and misusing of one of them without giving any evidence to support your claim. At this point there is no sense to move further...

I don't need to believe in god to hypothetically speak about one.
In fact, it is much more objective and meaningful when you speak about something you are not emotionally attached to, because your...

Secondly; the source of information is always a mind.
Well, I can agree, we created information concerning DNA, for instance. No problem here.

Take this challenge: just prove to me any natural...

I said that this definition works perfectly with me because you yourself defined information that way.
- I gave 2 definitions. And one is not equal to another. They are not the same. And you chose...

Since the the name of the thread is BELIEF IN ONE GOD, I have 2 questions concerning that:
Can god lie, in other words be dishonest, (if he exists)? 1.
2. Assuming there is really some external...

just as a reminder, monotheism is the original belief whereas polytheism is its deformed image.
-any evidence for that? I suppose you must have it, some references maybe? I am just interested.
...

Let’s see definition of information from many known websites
- there is no need for that.

“something that may contain it because someone placed it there intentionally “ This definition works...

Well a simple search in Google about the definition of DNA and you will find many sources saying DNA is instruction, code or information.
“DNA is a molecule that carries most of the genetic...

I don't know it so I can't really answer.

If you think we cannot form an analogy to form a theory of intelligent design then please show me why I might be wrong.
- .You can form any analogy you like. I am not taking that right from you. I...

I would like to establish definitions of what a belief and knowledge are."
KNOWLEDGE is something confirmed to be true, it is TESTABLE, DEMONSTRABLE, MEASURABLE.
If I make a statement, it is true...

Lets avoid naming designers as I am trying to debate you from scientific point of view only; that there a designer. No matter what names you throw. The common thing that we should agree about that...

Btw, I would be glad if we could create another thread called:
?Can god lie and is it really god

Scientific discoveries actually work, if you make a claim that a computer sends messages, you can verify it and prove that it actually is true.
If you make a claim that DNA is a result of designing,...

You see, you just dressed it in nice words but the argument stays the same and let me explain why:

As I said, you can't prove a non-man made object requires a creator/designer.

And you can't...

Well, here's a problem, technically we don't create anything, we reshape what is already there, so we are not really creators but just designers. Secondly, you can not prove that a designer is...

The thing is, you have no evidence to confirm it in the first place, you don't know how complexity emerges and this is where this lack of information leads you.
Hellenic believers had gods too, and...

In reference to:
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?55061-three-reasons-to-believe-in-god



ARGUMENT 1. - ORDER IN THE UNIVERSE
So there is complexity in the universe. And we can't fully...

Hey there, I was trying to respond to a post here but then instead of appearing under it:
http://www.eltwhed.com/vb/showthread.php?55061-three-reasons-to-believe-in-god

it is instead here:...

Hello everyone, I was just invited here by a person who, I suppose, is your friend, to talk about religion. SO I AM NOT CHARLIE1965. My name is Patryk and I am from Poland. Another thing is Charlie's...

Oh, yes I am a very bad person doing my best to answer others questions, while my questions are too often being ignored. At least I know the custom to sign myself when I write something. There is no...

Hi guys

Did you give up, or is something wrong with the site? I am waiting for some comments... 0

Charlie

Hi again Stranger

Nice you accept to talk of god from other angles of view. I like your explanation of why god made the universe so great (big) and made many planets without life. To stabilize the...

Hi again Stranger

I hope Ibn Alsunnah will let us talk about this, cause here we are touching the evolution and that has, due to him not the topic of this forum. We are in trouble... hehehe :-D
...

Hi Ibn Alsunnah and Ibrahim

As you understand I can not run 3 forums at the same time. I am alone here, talking to usually 2 or 3 people all the time, often writing very long messages. I have a...

Hi again,

To make it short, just this reply to your latest comment. What is more likely: Something simple being eternal, or something advanced? If we did not know anything of what was written...

Hi again Stranger (reply to the former post), 0

I did not read Dr Barrets research and never heard of him before, actually. 0

Next: I wrote something like Muslims avoiding to talk about...

Hi again Stranger. I did read your last message, but will wait for the previous one to be replied. We did write at the same time: 0

Charlie (maybe going to sleep now) 0

Hi Ibrahim

I am trying my best, but you are right it takes time and sometimes I miss things. Maybe I should invite another atheist to help me to answer some of the questions.0
Thanks for your...

Hi again Stranger

We are on the good way to write shorter messages. That is good. Not just because it saves us time, but because long messages often hide illogical things. Clear thinking can often...

Hi again Ibn Alsunnah

I asked a simple question. Does Quran accept the evolution. or does it deny it? Or does it not know? This is important. You can not say just that if science will prove it,...

To everyone,

Someone here claimed in some previous message that no Muslim would want to continue living if there is no god. This is to me very interesting. For the first I don't think anyone can...

Hi again Stranger

It is interesting that you say you write long messages to train your thoughts. I feel Muslims often come with same way of talk and are not good to reply when someone comes with a...

Hi Stranger

Hey... you should really control yourself. It is not a good way to debate to write such long messages. I read them all, but I am sure I will forget to reply something that is important...

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

Again I take your message before Strangers because it is a lot shorter. I have to admit that I am quite disappointed though. I asked before what does Quran says about creation...

Hi again Ibn Alsunnah

I still think that evidence for god, or no god has to be looked for from many aspects. Even if the topic is "why we believe in god at 21st century", it still includes...

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

It is ok if you are a bit busy. Sometimes we all are busy, but it is good to let the others know, so they are aware of this. 0

First some short comments about Sharia, despite...

Hi Ibrahim

I did read your previous message several times actually. I understand most of your statements about nothingness, the whole being and your statements as god and universe as two beings,...

Hi again Hossam

I could be cynical and say that unlike religion, science do not require "just one truth" that can explain everything and can not be change by knowledge. We learn part by part....

Hi Hosam

First I though... What is uniformitarianism? I did not know the word, but checked on Wikipedia. If I understood it correct, than it mean that the same natural laws always existed in the...

Hi again Stranger

Ok... than I hope we can continue with no bitter feelings. Be aware I will ask problematic questions though. I am sure you don't want me to pretend to agree when I don't, but...

Hi Stranger, 0

Pity you think like that. I thought we are on the slow way to find anagreement in a way to chat and I was about to reply some of the questions you asked in a former message, but did...

Hi Stranger

I am a bit confused about you. When you wrote the first message in this forum, to me..... the first part of it sounded very good.... I though it will be a pleasure to debate with you....

Hi again guys

After I was charged of being disrespectful and arrogant etc, I feel a need to explain why I am here and how I am debating. 0

I did not look up this site. A chat friend from Skype...

Hi Stranger

Although I gave up writing to you because of the reasons you know, I will still reply you here, because it could solve some problems. I will not even try to explain the words you...

Hi again Ibn Alsunnah

I am trying to have a relaxed conversation. It is not always easy. I refuse to let people treat me personally in a bad way. It would have been easier if you helped your...

Hello "Thank you" 0

If it is Ibn Alsunnah talking, than I would love to continue the debate. If it is Stranger talking, than I think we have finished. I prefer to talk to people who are showing...

Hi Ibrahim

Welcome to this forum. I will gladely look for new ways to tackle the problem. However after 12 sides of playing with words I would prefer any other sort of evidences. I don't want to...

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

Well, maybe my words can sound aggressive when I am upset, but I am not an aggressive person. In fact I am a very peaceful person, but I become upset when I hear what people can do...

No Stranger, we can not go back to the topic as long as you don't understand what is a nice custom in having a conversation. The problem is not that you said I am the only one who think god is...

Hi guys

It is amazing me that Ibn Alsunnah is saying I misunderstood Strangers words. It would have been more honest to defend him by saying he misunderstood my words. That would help him more....

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

Thanks for your latest reply. Before I go on answering your question, i will put one by myself:
Does Quran talk about creation, or about evolution? By evolution here I mean...

Hi again Stranger

Actually I should have replied Ibn Alsunnah first, but since I will keep it shorter with you, I take you first. Well, I enjoy this forum a lot too. If you want to continue...