:-)

[ابن السنة]

Welcome Charlie
I hope you would enjoy your stay here
you said

I am actually not here to find God. I am 100% sure he does not exist.

What is your evidence Charlie
I mean by evidence a set of ideas driven based on bare logic

You mentioned something very interesting here which worth to mention

Another reason is that we usually accept things that our parents teach us. It is very difficult to accept that your own parents teach you something that is not correct.

Well this is actually a problem that most people get trapped in, We call it the paradigm that people get imprisoned in. Actually this is totally aganist our religion. This doesn't mean that muslims don't do the same. Muslims are like others they are human beigns and they have desires. But the guidance ( The Quran and Sunnah) guides us and it is mentioned explicitly in the quran that this is the case

And when it is said unto them: Come unto that which Allah hath revealed and unto the messenger, they say: Enough for us is that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers had no knowledge whatsoever, and no guidance?
Almaeda 104


And even so We sent not a warner before thee (Muhammad) into any township but its luxurious ones said: Lo! we found our fathers following a religion, and we are following their footprints.
Alzukhruf 23
#

So as you can see the Quran blames people for just closing their minds and say we will follow what my parents followed

P.S My name in English is Ibn Alsunnah
Best Regards

[darc]

I will put verses of the Holy Quran in the Swedish language to be more clear for our friend Charlie

And when it is said unto them: Come unto that which Allah hath revealed and unto the messenger, they say: Enough for us is that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers had no knowledge whatsoever, and no guidance?
Almaeda 104


När de uppmanas, "Kom till det som Allah har uppenbarat och till budbäraren," säger de, "Det vi såg våra föräldrar göra räcker för oss." Tänk om deras föräldrar inte visste någonting och inte var vägledda?

Almaeda 104


And even so We sent not a warner before thee (Muhammad) into any township but its luxurious ones said: Lo! we found our fathers following a religion, and we are following their footprints.
Alzukhruf 23


Alltid när vi skickade en varnare till ett samhälle, sa ledarna av det samhället, "Vi såg våra föräldrar följa vissa seder, och vi kommer att fortsätta i deras fotspår."

Alzukhruf 23

here is the translation of the meanings of the holy Quran in Swedish language:
http://se.quran.nu

[أحمد فتحي الموحد]

so you blaim us that we follow our parents like you said, ok, that's true we have followed our parents till a moments when we have the basics and the necessary knowledge to make the decision, between creatism and evolution,

creatism: is a supranatural and very intelligent power has make the life in this world.
evolution: known as (darwinism) RANDOOM and COINCIDENCE make the all form of living thing in earth,

so as you can see, nobody has the good judgement can believe on somthing like coincidense as the creator of all matters.....

[ماجد]

شكرا darc علي الترجمة ..
أستمر

[darc]

welcome charlie
i hope you would enjoy your stay here
you said


what is your evidence charlie
i mean by evidence a set of ideas driven based on bare logic

you mentioned something very interesting here which worth to mention


well this is actually a problem that most people get trapped in, we call it the paradigm that people get imprisoned in. Actually this is totally aganist our religion. This doesn't mean that muslims don't do the same. Muslims are like others they are human beigns and they have desires. But the guidance ( the quran and sunnah) guides us and it is mentioned explicitly in the quran that this is the case

and when it is said unto them: Come unto that which allah hath revealed and unto the messenger, they say: Enough for us is that wherein we found our fathers. What! Even though their fathers had no knowledge whatsoever, and no guidance?
Almaeda 104


and even so we sent not a warner before thee (muhammad) into any township but its luxurious ones said: Lo! We found our fathers following a religion, and we are following their footprints.
Alzukhruf 23
#

so as you can see the quran blames people for just closing their minds and say we will follow what my parents followed

p.s my name in english is ibn alsunnah
best regards

مرحبا تشارلي اتمنى ان تقضيا وقتا ممتعا هنا

يقول تشارلي
انا لست في هذا المنتدى لابحث عن الله لانني متأكد 100 بالمائة انه غير موجود

ما هو دليلك يا تشارلي
لا اعني الادلة التي ليست مؤسسة على منطق صحيح

ذكرت هنا شيئا مهما وجذيرا بالذكر

يقول تشارلي
السبب الاخر هو اننا عادة ما نتبع الدين الذي علمنا إياه ابائنا.انه لصعب جدا ان تقبل من والديك ما يعلمانه اياك مما هو خاطئ

حسنا في الحقيقة هذا مشكل لا يعرف الكثير من الناس انهم وقعوا في شركه, نحن نسميه النموذج او
المثال الأعلى الذي يجعل الناس يتبعونه ويكونون محبوسون له . في الواقع هذا ضد ديننا. ولكن هذا لا يعني ان المسلمين لا يعملون نفس الشيء. المسلمون مثل غيرهم من البشر لديهم شهوات ورغبات. لكن القران والسنة يرشدوننا الى الحق
وفي القران ذكر الله مسألة اتباع دين الاباء
يقول الله تعالى في سورة المائدة:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْاْ إِلَى مَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَإِلَى الرَّسُولِ قَالُواْ حَسْبُنَا مَا وَجَدْنَا عَلَيْهِ آبَاءنَا أَوَلَوْ كَانَ آبَاؤُهُمْ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ شَيْئًا وَلاَ يَهْتَدُونَ (١٠٤)

وفي سورة الزخرف
وَكَذَلِكَ مَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ فِي قَرْيَةٍ مِّن نَّذِيرٍ إِلَّا قَالَ مُتْرَفُوهَا إِنَّا وَجَدْنَا آبَاءنَا عَلَى أُمَّةٍ وَإِنَّا عَلَى آثَارِهِم مُّقْتَدُونَ (٢٣)


من خلال الايات يتبين لك ان القران يلوم الناس الذين يغلقون عقولهم ويقولون بأننا سوف نتبع ملة ابائنا

تحياتي

[darc]

so you blaim us that we follow our parents like you said, ok, that's true we have followed our parents till a moments when we have the basics and the necessary knowledge to make the decision, between creatism and evolution,

creatism: is a supranatural and very intelligent power has make the life in this world.
evolution: known as (darwinism) RANDOOM and COINCIDENCE make the all form of living thing in earth,

so as you can see, nobody has the good judgement can believe on somthing like coincidense as the creator of all matters.....

اذن انت الان تلومنا لاننا نتبع ابائنا, حسنا هذا صحيح نحن نتبعهم الى ان نبلغ ونكون ناضجين ونملك المعرفة ثم بعد ذلك نتخذ قرارنا اما مع الخلق او مع التطور
الخلق: قوة خارقة فوق الطبيعة هي سبب وجود الحياة على ظهر المعمورة
التطور: المعروف بالداروينية حيث ان الصدفة العمياء هي التي سببت بوجود الحياة على الارض

so as you can see, nobody has the good judgement can believe on somthing like coincidense as the creator of all matters

[الاشبيلي]

hello charlie

u said

I am 100% sure he does not exist

this is wrong??why
because you there is nothing we are sure that 100%
even the evolution theory we aren't sure thats true

u said

Why I am here is to find out how it is possible that people still believe in gods in 21st century

yes you are right , maybe in 31st century , we will say how it is possible that people still believe in love or mercy ............etc

u said

Hello again. Someone whos name I can not read (because it is in Arabic) aked me why did I choose to be Atheist

this is me . my name is ashbely from yemen

u said

it is not a choice I made

u mean the atheist is a truth !!!

let me talk like u : i will say the religion is not a choice it is a truth way

ok

do u believe in soul ??????


with my best regards from ur friend ashbely

[Charlie1965]

Hi again guys,
Thanks for your comments. I am just sorry I can not read some of the messages, because they are in Arab language.
However, let me reply at the questions I could understand.
For the first it is true that science can not give answer on every question about life and the universe itself. But religion can definitively not do it.
I will have a chance to develop this more later but I try to concentrate now at the questions I got already. About evolution. Evolution does not work with complete random. Random changes that appear at the existing species work in all directions and not all the changes are good for the species. Actually almost all mutations are not good. Those will not survive. To make a simple example let us talk about a bird that will have a very big mutation (in reality mutations are almost always a lot smaller) Let us say a bird has a genetic error and it get a third wing! This is a huge mistake. If this bird would get chicks, it is very likely that some of them will get a third wing too, because the error is in the genes. But how likely is that this bird will get chicks? For the first, it would have problems flying and would most likely very soon be taken by a hawk or some other animal, before it gets adult. If it despite all would survive and become adult, how would the chances be to get the chicks? Probably it would be almost impossible, cause such bird would not be attractive to the other sex. Usually such bird would be mobbed out and never get a partner. It's modified genes would never get to the next generation. It's third wing would definitively not benefit this poor bird.#
Now lets look and another, more positive example. Another bird is being born with some modified gene that makes its wings slightly longer. Nothing very dramatic, but still a bit longer. Let us say this bird is an eagle, that is migrating by winter. It is using the thermal winds (winds that are blowing upwards when the ground is being heated by sun and which many big birds use when migrating). What would this mean to this bird? It would be able to soar a little bit higher and migrate a little bit faster because of this. It would reach the wintering area a bit faster than the other birds. It would spend shorter time and the dangerous migration. In the spring time when moving back to the breeding area, it would probably return back some day before the other birds of the same species. This would give it a chance to get a better nesting area with more food. Lets, say our eagle is a male. With a good area he would easily get a female. It's longer wings would not bother the female. The eagle still looks very normal. He would probably have a successful nesting and it's genes would be copied to the next generation., which will very likely have longer wings too, if they get their fathers genes, that shows to be good. After some generations, more and more birds will have longer wing. The species is changing a little. But why are eagles that are migrating not getting longer and longer wings than, if it is for their benefit? Well, the reality is more complicated than our little example. Long wings are maybe good for a long migration, but maybe not so good when hunting. Specially if a bird is hunting in the forest. So, in real world it is not sure that our eagle male would be so successful. He would maybe get a better area for nesting because he was there before the others, but he would maybe not be so good hunter and therefore not so successful in raising his chicks.
However, those two examples show how evolution works. This is not a silly thing. Evolution is real and it goes on all the time, even today. It is not even very hard to understand. It takes time, but it had time for billions of years and that is why it came so far.
The "engine" for the evolution is natural selection. There IS randomness in evolution, but only the mutations that are good for survive will survive in the long run. Sorry I wrote a long mail, but I tried my best to give a straight answer to the questions about evolution being "silly".
Best regard from Charlie :-)#

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ashbely,
Thanks for your comments. Well let me reply back.
You say nothing is 100% for sure? If I ask you how sure are you that the earth is a globe? Maybe you can not be 100% sure, but something like... let's say 99,999999% Maybe everyone is lying to you, while the world is in fact flat. Not very likely, but not completely impossible. To not use decimals you would say 100% sure. In the case of God I am more sure than that, but I choose to say 100%. Why so sure? Because the .
whole story is completely unbelievable, but we will have chance to talk more about it later.
#We will not be alive at the 31st century to see if there are still religions at that time. I doubt actually. I think humans have either destroyed themselves, or they have learned a lot more about life. I don't think there would be place for religion more than as something interesting that people used in the past to explain the world, since their knowledge was so low.

Best regards from Charlie :-)

[Charlie1965]

Forgot to answer to the question if believe in a soul. Well, if a soul is or mind that will live on after we die, than no. I don't believe in it.

[Charlie1965]

Darc, I almost forgot your message. Well, you do admit that you follow your parents. So do maybe 99% of the Christians and so do maybe 99% of the Buddhist, or any other religion. If you were born as a Buddhist you would almost for sure be a Buddhist and you would believe you are right. If you were open minded, and open for knowledge, than you would study Buddism too and the Bible and also Biological explanation, that means Evolution. That would give you a real chance to make a good decision. Well, you can always ask me beck, if I did the same thing? Well, I did not read Quran and did not read Bible either, although my mother sent me to a religious Christian "Sunday school" to learn about God when I was a kid. I am though reading about religions, even by Islam. But today I am adult enough to understand some things and there is no place for any religious believes in my world. If you really want to know the truth, than you will see I am right. Life did not appear just by sayng "Let there be life". You will see I am right, but ok... give it some time. Best regards from Charlie :-).

[darc]

[QUOTE=Charlie1965;181543]Hi again guys,

. I am just sorry I can not read some of the messages, because they are in Arab language

.

Hey Charlie, the Arabic messages you see here are only the traslation of what is written in English it is not a new messages
i just translate what is written here to be understood by those who do not understand English
Enjoy staying here

[ابن السنة]

Dear Charlie
I will leave the discussion about Evolution to brothers who are more specialized in the area and there are a few here. I also hope that they would find your message and reply

I just want to introduce the islamic point of view of information
First there is the absolute truth or the fact
For example. I exist ; this is a fact if I deny it then there is no need to proceed further.
Then we have what is probably true.
For example this is the case of most scientific theories
The first principle is
TWO FACTS cannot contradict
The second principle is that WHAT IS most probable if it APPARENTLY contradicts a fact we have to accept the fact and interpret what is most probably true in its light.
If we can then this is fine
If we can't we will just say that the probably true statement is not correct

If the probably true statement is all what we have we will accept it until either it is proven to be a fact or reject it if it was proven to be incorrect
We don't reject what is APPARENTLY true unless it contradicts a A FACT

The Third principle is when we have two probably true statements
Well here we have to think more and may be it would be hard to say which one to accept.

I believe this is very important before going into real discussions

Do you accept this methodology

[Charlie1965]

I see no problem in this way of discussing things. The first statement could even be depicted in a way an ancient Greek philosopher said: "I think.... that means I exist"
. :-)#

[المهاجر إلى ربه]

I advise you this link
http://www.alheweny.org/english/