:-)

[ابن السنة]

Hi Charlie
I am sorry that you lost what you wrote previously
I know it is frustrating
My whole point about understanding and visualizing is that not every understandable point is visualized
A simpler example infinity

About the question Who created God, I told you that you may not appreciate the answer at this point
To answer this :

Why can not a creator be created? How can something exist if it is not created?

I didn't claim that God created himself or that he came out of nothing
We need to proceed with our original discussion


A quick comment on

You ask about the ability of the universe to create. I just say Evolution. I also say chemical processes. I also say radioactivity. I say nuclear reactions.

What about these rules themselves
?
You think that if we believe in a creator this means that we refuse the cause and effect principle
?
and this is completely wrong

We have the evidence that is exists even, but we have no evidence that would make it even likely that God exists

That is what we are proving right now

The important point is
1- "Eternal" as a concept is not rejected
2-

Do you think that an infinite chain of causes and events is possible
?
Please let the answer be either No ( then I will understand that you understood my arguments) or Yes it can happen because of such and such

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah

[أحمد فتحي الموحد]

"", "i know what you mean dont overestimate yourself ...friend..., i feel some "upperlook here

dont wast your time to teach me the meaning of symbols...ok..?

when i talk about insect... i talk about your theory evolution: you say that dinosaurs evolved into birds, by two way (evolution theory):

# 1--- : cursial theory: that the dino make a simple decision, is to run with high speed to fly from earth to sky.... (denied by a couple of darwinist [U]evolusionists[/U, cuz is more insean that we can imagine...] )

# 2---: arboreal theor : that the dino. jumps from an branch to other branch,why... to catch flies... and with that the dino. evolved their ability and..then we have the creature named bird...

so, my question here, its about the second theory, how flies acquired the (evolved) the systeme of flying before dyno.

like i said i wait a response from you


ahmed

[أحمد فتحي الموحد]

3rd: this theory have more probleme than that, for exemple, history: the claimed ancetor of birds ( imean, the dino. that have the similars propretises "superficially" with the present bird, appered before 80 to 85 Millions years ago, and the most old bird until now appears before 150 millions years ago?!

ahmed

[ابن السنة]

Dear Charlie
Don't hurry in answering my question
Just go and have some sleep and think of it deeply tomorrow morning
Think of everything and see if the logic flows or not
What is important for me that you get convinced
And I hope you would put aside your emotional ideas and pre assumptions
That is why I tried to my best to put aside any emotional evidence during the discussion

Ibn Alsunnah

[الاشبيلي]

hi dear charlie
you said

But what I mean by soul is something that will keep our mids alive after we are dead. I don't see how are mind would live on after death

you don't see because you can't imagine so you can't think about the live after death because your mind and my mind and all minds of people weak can't imagine that like the eyes is weak can't see the cell or see the far star and galaxy unless we use the telescope or microscope .

you said

I don't believe in soul. Still we think while we are alive. But after we die, we think just as much as we did before we were born. That means we don't think at all

are you sure that there is not a live before we born ?????\

maybe we were a live but we cant remember because the brain and destroyed so the memory distroyed this is what the buddism say

u can not prove in any way that there is not a life before we born and you cannot prove in anyway that there is not a life after death

so don't say i'm sure 100% there is not a god or life after death

you said

Our minds contain of a huge number of electrical signals in our brain. When it is damaged after we die, you can not restore it. It is gone forever

when the antenna is damaged , thats mean the radio or tv or any data wave is damaged and gone forever !!!!

this is the first time i know that

to be cont...........

[الاشبيلي]

you said

You think there is a God deciding about who will be born and who not?

yessssss because nothing can know my personality

my dad and my mom get a married and have a baby

but they know who i'm ???????

they know my software ( soul) in this hardware ( body)

i can to beget a child has black skin or white
i will get married from black girl or white

but can i know her or his personality i can't and you can't and every human can't do that

if we are a intelligence creatures can't know this personality of that human

how can the chance know that

and you know the chance is less intelligence than human ????????????

you said

But I don't understand what difference it would make if you were born another year

yes you don't understand because your mind is weak and this equation is far and a far than the mind ability .

the different between i was born in this year or that year is maybe i didn't exist is not born anyway
why i'm born who know me who know my personality

the chance i don't think so , i'm sure the chance don't know what is the chance


to be cont...........

[الاشبيلي]

you said

You say you don't want to live if your life has no meaning. I want. We have to find a meaning and I feel sorry for people who can not find a meaning by themselves. Get a hobby or something. Try to learn about real world. Try to help people around you to have a happier life. Fight for human rights. Fight to protect the environment so that your children will live in a better world. There are so many ways to find happiness

if my life is without meaning the life is without meaning this is the truth

help people today tomorow they will day like me what is the benefits to help thim if there is any benefits like a money or interests why i will help thim

but in religion we help thim even god for give us for god make us in heven

but without religion and holy goals i will not help any body i will be like shark or snik

you said friend we must to fight for enviroment ????

we know that after millions year the sun will bomb and collapse the solar system

so if there is not any meaning from this life so let me interesting and i don't care by the next generation the important thing is myself only
this is the case of athiest

but in islam prophet mohammed ( peace up on to him) said

if you life in the last day and see the doomsday coming don't let the farm the earth
he said you must to learn from cradle to grave


with my best regards

your friend ###############ashbely########

[darc]

the Hadith ( sayings of the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him ) of the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him in other way to be more understood

if you life in the last day and see the doomsday coming don't let the farm the earth

the prophet Mohammed peace be upon him says;

When doomsday comes, if someone has a palm shoot in his hand , he should plant it.

other Hadith:
he says:
“There is none amongst the believers who plants a tree, or sows a seed, and then a bird, or a person, or an animal eats thereof, but it is regarded as having given a charitable gift [for which there is great recompense].” [Al-Bukhari, III:513].


also


There is no one among the believers who plants a tree, or sows a seed, and then a bird, or a person, or an animal eats thereof, but it is regarded as having given a charitable gift [for which there is great recompense]. (Hadith)

[الاشبيلي]

dear charlie

sorry to tell u this message

i should to stop here

for many reasons

my brothers will continue with u

i hope you know the truth

your friend ashbely

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

Looks like we are getting stuck with the logical thinking with what comes before Cn... the reason is that we can not know what happened before BB. Was there a universe before it, or did it all start there? If we look at the cosmic egg (as some call the thing that exploded at B we don't know what it really contained. The only thing that we know that can contain so much materia at one single place is a black hole. However this must have been a really huge one, if it was a black hole. But the problem here is that we don't know any way for a black hole to explode. This is beyond what science knows today. We know conditions in a black hole are extreme. Even the electrons and protons are crushed and the density can maybe be unlimited. Maybe when a black hole grows to this enormous dimension like the cosmic egg was, maybe there is a way for it to explode. Probably the conditions are extreme, even compared to ordinary sized black holes. This is of course just a speculation and so far impossible to test
This can sound like a weakness of science, but in fact it is it's strength. The science have no pressure to have all the answers, but accepts the facts that are proven. Darwinism is not a theory anymore, although many try to use this word, that has been used initially, even by Darwin himself

Back to the discussion between a fahter and a son. Did you think discussion between a Muslim and an Atheist could sound like this: 0
Muslim: Who created the life? 0
Atheist: It was not created. It evaluated from simple life to more complex.
Muslim: I can not see that
Atheist: Of course you can not see, because it goes to slowly to be seen in real time, but evolution had billions of years time to work since the earths "birth" 0

I am sure you would understand that... or am I wrong? A boy would understand that and so would my son. 0

Now I will continue with other mails and come back to other of your messages. Sorry I am delayed, but there is a lot to answer.

Best regards from Charlie :-) 0#

[ابن السنة]

Dear Charlie,

Looks like we are getting stuck with the logical thinking with what comes before Cn

No I am not asking what caused the universe to exist. I mean it is not the intend of our discussion to explore the properties of such matter, Was it Energy, Was it elementary particles, Was it a material which we never investigate
All this is not important
What is important that there is a cause which caused the universe to exist
Lets assume that its name is C1

This can sound like a weakness of science, but in fact it is it's strength. The science have no pressure to have all the answers, but accepts the facts that are proven.

Dear Charlie
I am not against science so you don't have to defend the status of science


About the dialogue between the Muslim and the Atheist, this is not related to the origin of the universe,as you said the muslim is asking about the origin of life and we are not talking about that right now


I feel that everything converges to the same question

Do you think that an infinite chain of causes and events is possible
?
Please let the answer be either No ( then I will understand that you understood my arguments) or Yes it can happen because of such and such

This is my only question Charlie, I don't care the "nature" of this cause which originated our universe.

Thank you
Ibn Alsunnah

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ahmed

I have no upperlook (as you said). Maybe I feel upperlook when talking about evolution against creation, but this is because I feel so sure about what I talk. As human being, or in any other way, I don't feel that upperlook, but I respect you as all other people. Without the respect, there is no way to have a good conversation. The reason why I explained the symbols " " is simply because you really seemed to not have understood how I used the word "invented" 0

Back to the topic. I still don't understand why do you see it as a problem that insects did fly before flying reptiles and birds? 0 Evolution is not like a straight line where some abilities that are "invented" necessarily have to appear at the most advanced species. If we look at the evolution and the species it would more look like a huge tree, where each leaf presents a species that is a alive today. The branches can show their way of evolution and two leafs near each other would be closer related than those at distant branches. The higher evaluated species are closer to the top of the tree, and more simple species lower. But there is nothing that says that a "leaf at the bottom of the tree can not have wings", but only the one near the top. Or, did I misunderstand your question? 0#
Bets regards from Charlie, I work on with other questions, as soon as i get time. 0

[أحمد فتحي الموحد]

i think you haven't understood my question, theres a cause for evolusion on "evolution theory", like the flying of dino.

like the theory says: theres two theorys or "causes" what i mean is the cause in the case of insects, knowing that the fossil records deny any transformation, i dont want

to put some liknks here because you dont like links, so let's get it here

3rd: this theory have more probleme than that, for exemple, history: the claimed ancetor of birds ( imean, the dino. that have the similars propretises "superficially" with the present bird, appered before 80 to 85 Millions years ago, and the most old bird until now appears before 150 millions years ago?!

you haven't reply to that?.... i wait for it

ahmed

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

I will take your last message before the others, because it seems very important to you in our mutual debate. I take the other messages later. 0
Well, the problem in any case is that I don't know the answer at your question. I can think "yes", or think "no" but what would it mean when I don't know? If you know than please explain how it is and why it is that way.0

Best regards from Charlie

[ابن السنة]

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

I will take your last message before the others, because it seems very important to you in our mutual debate. I take the other messages later. 0
Well, the problem in any case is that I don't know the answer at your question. I can think "yes", or think "no" but what would it mean when I don't know? If you know than please explain how it is and why it is that way.0

Best regards from Charlie

Simply if the causes can go up to infinity, then our existence condition will never be satisfied right
?
Because for us to be here, our universe should exist but our universe depends on its cause
In another word if this cause,C1, didn't exist then our universe will not exist and we will not exist
But for the cause of our universe,C1, to exist its cause (C2) has to exist
But for C2 to exist C3 should exist
But for C3 to exist C4 should exist
and so on
so our condition of existence will never be satisfied because it depends on an infinite chain of sequential events
This would lead to a paradox
We exist but an infinite chain of causes and effects says that we shouldn't
Therefore, An infinite chain of causes and effects cannot be true
Do you agree then that this chain of causes cannot be infinite
?
Please don't think of the nature of the causes, they are just "conditions which should be verified so that its effect takes place

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah