:-)

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ashbely

Your comparing between a broken antenna and a dead person maybe sounds like a good compare, to compare a living creature with a technical product is quite irrelevant. You can not (yet) make a transplantation of a human brain and even if you could, that person would be another person, because our mind is in the brain. 0
#
About life after death. True... I can not be 100 sure, but somewhere around 99% or so. Why? Because if it is like you said that maybe we even lived before, but don't remember it. What could be the meaning of such reborn life? That is equal like someone die and another person being born. That is why I have no reason to believe in that. 0

You say God decides of who will be born. Does he do that only for humans, or even for every microbe and every insect? What a huge job... Maybe it is not so strange he does not have time to make a world better if he is doing that all days long :-P

And you say why are not black child being born by white parents and the opposite. What kind of question is that? This is basic in Evolution that kids get many of their parents abilities. The don't just have same color, but also similar look and similar abilities. But never exactly the same persons. This is what natural selection uses. The small differences. There is nothing in Darwinism that says two black parents will have a white child sometimes! That would be completely against the teaching. We are talking pure Darwinism here.0

#The reason why you are born one year and not another. What is that? It makes no sense and you sound quite confused there. If it is because problems with the language, than I hope someone can help to make me understand. Don't judge my mind as weak. I think with my own brain and I am in the minority no matter where in the world I am. I hope you understand that it takes some kind of strength to be in that position and not just follow what your own parents and the society you live in says. You may call me stupid, if you think so, but than you have to try talking smarter than me. But don't call me weak. 0

Next thing: If you really mean that you don't want to live if life has no higher meaning, than I don't want to debate with you anymore. I don't want to open your eyes and make you become suicide, or loose the lust to live. I don't want to have you at my conscience. I really mean it. So if you really mean that, than we stop here and I let you live in your fantasy. I really don't care about that, but it is a big shame that so many people preferto live that way. 0

Best regards from Charlie

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ahmed,

Sometimes I don't understand your questions and just skip them. Sorry for that. This is because I have so many things to reply every day so I don't have time enough. Than I skip those that I don't understand and hope they will be repeated in some other way. 0

About the flying insects and the dinos. Please feel free to send me the link that you talk about. Sometimes it is necessary and I think in this case it is. Than I will probably understand the problem- o

About the dinosaurs and the birds. I did not check the exact time of the periods when the dinos and the birds appeared, but I have no reason to mistrust the years 80 and 150 miion of years ago, that you talk about. However i don't see a problem here either. You say "most of the birds" appear at that time, which means (and it is also true) that there were birds before that. The similar construction only means they very likely have the same relative, I say "very likely" because there is something called "convergent evolution". This means two species having similar look because they live in similar way, like swifts and swallows. They are not close related, but both spend most of the time flying (swift almost all the time) and hunting insects. This goes hand in hand and therefore they look similar. This comment should be considered as a side note, because in case of dinosaurs walking on the ground and birds that most of them are flying this can not be the case. There way of living is very different. The similarity in their construction is a sign of same origins. 0
Best regards from Charlie

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

I appreciate your try to simplify the debate, but I still see it got stuck here. Ok, if we talk about C1, C2 C3 as a purely imaginary chain of cause and the effects, than maybe you are right and you want me to just look at it that way (to not involve god or creation at this stage), although you talk about universe and it's cause. Since you talk about it than you already involved it, so don't expect me to play games. We talk about universe and I don't know if this logic can be applied on it. If Einstein is correct that the energy can not be gained or lost and that talks against your point of view. But, I don't want to stop you from going further in this discussion, so I say... ok.... Let's say you are right. There is a cause. So, feel free to go further with this and let's see where we will end up. 0

Best regards from Charlie

[أحمد فتحي الموحد]

sorry about this, can not by helped, if you can't understand my question.....

now you start to eskape from my requested question....

but however theres the links:

http://www.fossil-museum.com/fossils/fosil.php?Id=20594

you can take a look there

theres more and more but that will be fine

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ahmed
I am not escaping from any questions, but some I don't understand. Neither you or me have English as our mother language, so we have to be patient with each other. 0

By the way, why did God make Quran only in Arab and not in English or Chinese? At the time of Mohammad world was still very big and for example native people in America or Australia (for example) had no chance to read it. Did they end in hell because of this? Not really fair in that case. He should have sent Quran to every continent at least ;-) 0

I checked the link you sent me. What exactly did you want me to see in the link? A cat fish that did not change for 50 millions of years? This is not against evolution. Evolution is not a god that is necessarily changing the species. This fish obviously did not need to change. It worked anyway. It was not put to any hard challange by any outer factor. It is not strange that we find most of such species in the sea, where conditions did not change that fast and that hard, like they did on land. 0

Feel free to ask more. I am always glad if I can explain things to you or anyone else, as far as I can. Best regards from Charlie

[Charlie1965]

What question did I not reply, Ahmed? 0

[ابن السنة]

Dear Charlie,

I appreciate your try to simplify the debate, but I still see it got stuck here. Ok, if we talk about C1, C2 C3 as a purely imaginary chain of cause and the effects, than maybe you are right

Well this is right for anything because it depends on logic. Even science depends on the same logic

and you want me to just look at it that way (to not involve god or creation at this stage), although you talk about universe and it's cause. Since you talk about it than you already involved it, so don't expect me to play games.

I don't want you to look at something against logic. If logic says it is like that then we don't have anything to do except accepting the facts. Remember what you always say about how people follow their parents and don't try to accept the reality?
I ask you to do the same. There is ONE and ONLY ONE common background between us in this discussion which is FACTS. What is driven from basic logic is a FACT.

We talk about universe and I don't know if this logic can be applied on it

If we don't apply this logic so what other type of logic can we apply then?
Do you want me to say a part is greater than a whole
and say these are the rules of logic which govern the universe at the very early times?

If Einstein is correct that the energy can not be gained or lost and that talks against your point of view.

When Einstein and any other scientists propose a theory, He or she uses the same logic that we use to reason about the experimental results and link it to its causes. Every human being uses this machinery.
So, when Einstein or Lorentz studied the MM experiment, they said ok the experiment gives results which CONTRADICT our equations so lets see how to fix this.
When M. Planck introduced his constant for the first time, he did the same. He was solving the black body radiation problem using thermodynamics and found that the result was strange, the energy radiated from the black body was infinity. So he said this is against LOGIC so we have to fix our understanding.
So to make long story short: The benchmark for every scientist is logic.
Einstein cannot say that energy is eternal forever, specially that his theory breaks before the Planck time.
Usually Scientists don't talk about things which is out scope of matter, But the problem with those who start building and ideology on the top of science, which when removed doesn't leave any trace on the scientific facts themselves
Even if he said so, I will not accept what he says. Remember what I said before if I have a fact and someone came to me and said something which appears to contradict it, I will say wait a minute a fact cannot be falsified, may be what you say has a different meaning, or may be it is not universal as you think.

But, I don't want to stop you from going further in this discussion, so I say... ok.... Let's say you are right. There is a cause. So, feel free to go further with this and let's see where we will end up.

Ok, I will continue:
If the chain of causes is not infinite, so it has to be finite, we don't have any option
Remember we said that all the answers to the question: How it all started was:
1-Created from Nothing

And we said this is impossible because it contradicts logic.
2- Some cause created it
May be
3- Eternal
May be but wait this also contradicts logic. Because if we assume that we are now in a certain state, then our state "evolved" ( I bet you love the term) from a previous state and so... and since we agree that everything has a cause so we will end up having infinite chain of causes which are necessary for forming our state right now. And this is impossible.
4-Others
We didn't find anything else

So the ONLY solution is caused by a certain cause

Then we asked the following question:
How many causes can we go to form our universe?
Can this be infinite?
Well no because the chain of infinite causes means that we don't exist.
So, we have to reject this assumption

So we end up with ONLY one possibility:

The set of causes is finite, which means it has a FIRST CAUSE

Lets try to understand some of the properties of the FIRST CAUSE
Lets ask this question:
Can the first cause be converted to a second cause, In a materialistic description: Can its material convert?
Well assume so, then it needs something outside it to cause it to convert, But it is the first cause by definition so this is impossible
And this where you find problems with most religions on earth including ChristianityCorollary 1, where they trapped themselves in a dilemma: How can God be not like the creation ( The father) but at the same time be like the creation ( the son ).
The FIRST CAUSE is different from other causes and events.

The FIRST CAUSE doesn't depend on any other causes ( if it does this means it is not the first cause )

Corollary 2

The FIRST CAUSE is self sufficient

These are all my arguments.
One very important point:
You may ask me to describe this FIRST CAUSE.
My answer is simply: I can't because of corollary 1: The FIRST CAUSE is different from anything which follows it, including our universe so how can I describe something which is not like anything else. I can't say its color is such and such. Why? because in this case I described the FIRST CAUSE as something which emits radiation ( photons ) and this contradicts corollary 1 and 2.

The FIRST CAUSE is GOD.
One of the attributes of God in Islam is the FIRST.
I will cite you some verses from the quran about that:

He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing.
Alhadeed 3

The Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you mates from yourselves, and for the cattle (also) mates. By this means He creates you (in the wombs). There is nothing like Him, and He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer

ِAlshura 11

Say: He is Allah, the One! (1) Allah, the eternally Besought of all! (2) He begetteth not nor was begotten. (3) And there is none comparable unto Him. (4)
Alikhlas

I hope Charlie that you will read more about Evolution and see what is true in it from what is false. I don't say that everything in Evolution is wrong. BUT building an ideology over a theory, just to negate the idea of a creator from the equation is unaccepted.
I just want to add another point about "Humanity" , "Helping others" and so....
What are the materialistic definitions of these words??
What is the materialistic meaning of justice?
Try to put a definition like this:
Justice is the force acting on a unit charge to........
This is the only type of a definition that is accepted from an atheist.
I know that you have good things inside you based on what we call in islam the human fetra or you can call it the basic human intuitive.
Actually this is also a prove of GOD.

I hope at the end that you will reconsider your ideas about yourself and your position in this universe. I also hope that you understood more about our faith and if you didn't convert to Islam than at least you know that we have something to say
And at the end it is all your choice and I will end up by a quote from the quran

So remind them (O Muhammad (SAW)) — you are only a one who reminds. (21) You are not a dictator over them — (22)

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah

[ابن السنة]

Dear Charlie
I hope that after you read my previous message, the answer to your question who created God
?
is very obvious
The answer is
God cannot be created because he is the First

Thanks
Ibn Alsunnah

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

Very intresting and long mail. I take it step by step, as you did and I use logic just as you say you do
I jump over the initial part of the message, because I don't disagree there. We have to use logic as far as we can. I jump down to Einstein.0
True that not everything that Einstein calculated can be applied to such extreme conditions that existed at the time for Big Bang and is very difficult to check. It works perfect in our world, but what do we know at that time. So, ok... this is a theory about energy can not be gained or lost. But religions are not even a theory. It is a believe.

Please don't call Evolutions or Darwinism as an Ideology. It is not based on thephy. It was based on theory initially, but today it is accepted and confirmed by science. And we don't talk about "some scientist", but probably nearly 100% of scientists, if you exclude some "scientists" educated in striclty religious schhol that deny all science that talks against god. We have that in other religions too, not just Islam. Darwinism is not an ideology. It is the expenation of how species evaluate and is confirmd by genetics. I am sorry you don't like so much to talk about evoluton as brother Ahhmed does, but if you don't do it you miss a very important evidence against creationism.#
I will answer some of your questions in the long mail later, because i go to eat now and prey to Darwin (hehe... just joking). 0
I jump straight to your last and much shorter mail. You said : 0
The answer is
God cannot be created because he is the First

But this is no solution at all! First you say nothing can be created, from nothing, than you say God appeared from nothing and not just that! Now he created the whole universe from nothing! From one impossible thingyou make two impossible things! Where is the logic you talk about??? And you say that is obvious evidence??? 0
Best regards from Charlie :-) 0

[ابن السنة]

Dear Charlie

But religions are not even a theory. It is a believe

Well true and false at the same time
True if you mean that prophets didn't claim that this was an idea or a proposal
But false if you mean it is just a blind faith, May be some religions are like that. But not Islam for sure . We can discuss with you everything, Even I can send you one of the transmission chains of how the Quran was transmitted to us. I can send you the huge tree with reciters, back to the prophet (PBUH)
I can tell you how the sayings of the prophet were written. Everything is stored
So, please don't put everything in one bag.

Please don't call Evolutions or Darwinism as an Ideology. It is not based on thephy. It was based on theory initially, but today it is accepted and confirmed by science.

Evolution is a materialistic description of the evolution of species. If you accept that nothing is beyond matter, then it is the ONLY solution.

And we don't talk about "some scientist", but probably nearly 100% of scientists, if you exclude some "scientists" educated in striclty religious schhol that deny all science that talks against god. We have that in other religions too, not just Islam.

Lets say 99% of Scientists
Many of them just accept it based on the media propaganda, and if they don't accept, they will be treated as non-scientific
By the way, I studied Evolution at high school back home ( Egypt). Remember also that we don't have a religious authority in Islam. We have Scholars but still they are not holy or can have this status. I can disagree with a scholar and follow what I feel is true.
Again, Countries in the middle east, where the majority of the population is muslims are governed by secular governments and not as you think in Sweden that we are in the church controlling phase

Darwinism is not an ideology. It is the expenation of how species evaluate and is confirmd by genetics

One small correction
It is the only materialistic expenation of how species evaluate
Not true that it is confirmed by genetics. The other way happened: Evolution as a theory " evolved" to be consistent with genetics

But this is no solution at all! First you say nothing can be created, from nothing, than you say God appeared from nothing

No, I didn't say God appeared from nothing. I just said he is the first which is completely different
Remember that to say that an "entity" is eternal is not against logic

Now he created the whole universe from nothing! From one impossible thingyou make two impossible things!

First let me define "nothing" in this context, Nothing is the opposite of things
Appearing out of nothing is rejected because there is no CAUSE for it. But I am not saying that here. I am saying that the second cause if you want to call it is created by the First cause when the condition of its existence exists
Remember that for a cause which may be an event of the cause that proceeds it, for this cause to exist, a set of conditions should be verified. And these conditions are satisfied by the cause that proceeds it. Get my point
?
Our logic leads us to this point: The second cause is fully determined by the FIRST. But what is illogical is to say that something appears with no cause which is equivalent to say something appeared out of nothing ( Absolutely Nothing

Were they created of nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
Altur 35

I am sorry that this is very abstract

I am sorry that I can't talk about Darwinism, since it needs me to go and open the books again and I am very busy these days
But, I remember a very good book which is written by an -Anti- Darwinism ( Phillips Johnson).He is the devil to Darwinists
I liked his book
I don't know if you read the book or not
Its name is Darwin on trail
I guess you can find it on the web

At the end as Dr Hossam said: What is the relation between evolution and that God doesn't exist
?
If you go step by step, You should say ok. I believe in God but I still don't believe in any religion.
Then move forward and say, I don't believe in religions because they are against FACTS such as Evolution.
Then lets discuss what is a fact in Evolution and what is just a philosophy
And at the end FACTS will always be accepted

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah

[المهاجر إلى ربه]

press here

[Charlie1965]

Hi again Ibn Alsunnah

Back to the questions about materialistic point of view. First we have to keep it clear that the pint of view on justice, humanity etc have nothing to do with evidence of god, or evidence for evolution. This is a completely different topic, but I like to talk about it anyway.0

Humanity and helping others is normal to every human society, no matter what you believe in. So it is in the atheistic or materialistic world. I don't see why it would be in other way. We will not be payed back in next life or after death, but that just means our help and generosity is more honest.We don't do it a s a deal with god like "I do this and this and this and therefore you owe me a place in paradise". We do it because we think we can not be happy if seeing people suffer. This is of course an idealistic picture. Like in every society people are often selfish and not doing what they feel is right to do., but this is the problem in every society.0

Justice: I can only talk about my point of view, cause it is not same in the whole secularized world. Well, I am against death penalty, because it can never be right to kill. If people do wrong, there are always background reasons. No one is born evil. If killing a murder would give back the life to his victim, than I would be for it. But it does not work that way. Justice has to be a good example to people. It it is not right to kill, than you make no difference who kills. This person who did it has to be treated like human being, but also prevented to kill again. If necessary, stay protected in a jail whole life with being able to live a human life.#0
For minor crimes, like stealing, there should not be cutting of hands like Sharia says. This is so primitive. And it is also a good sign that Quran was not written by some god than by a human. A god who wants to put humans on try and see what they will do (despite that he already know as you all say) would punish this person when he comes to heaven, or just deny him the heaven. Not tell people to cut peaces of his own creation. 0
#What you call fetra is for me a desperate need to have someone strong at your side. It is a need for power and what could be a greater power than being on same side as the greatest powers of all. It is often used to mislead other people. I would like to citate words from Desmond Tutu, a Catholic priest from South Africa: Your enemies are not Gods enemies. No one has right to say who is gods enemy. I am not Catholic as you know, but I respect this man highly because of many smart things he said. However no one has ever seen this god and no one will ever do it, because it is just an imagination. Yes, it is difficult to prove that something don't exist, but it is quite easy to show mistakes in every religious book. And since there are mistakes, what else evidence do you need that the book is false? A fantastic idea is not just unbelievable but also proven to be false. 0
Yes, Ibn Alsunnah, I learn a lot here and it confirms my suspecting that I had from the start. Some people believe in god simply because they want and because it is very hard to stand against something that all the society you live in is saying. I could put here any evidence at all against god and you would still believe in him. But did you ever ask yourself a question like this: Why are all religions wrong, but only my is true? That was one of my first thoughts. Analyze your own religion like you would analyze the others. You have denied all other religions so you are very near the truth. I can congratulate you there. You just need to reject one more - Islam.0

Best regards from Charlie

[Charlie1965]

Mr Press Here, could you translate to me the post card from Rome?What is written at the flags and around the picture. Best regards, Charlie

[الاشبيلي]

Your comparing between a broken antenna and a dead person maybe sounds like a good compare, to compare a living creature with a technical product is quite irrelevant. You can not (yet) make a transplantation of a human brain and even if you could, that person would be another person, because our mind is in the brain. 0
#

hi again mr charlie

i can to compare between my heart and the pump of water but between my life and another thing like wave no i cant to compare strange !!! anyway

you said

You say God decides of who will be born. Does he do that only for humans, or even for every microbe and every insect? What a huge job... Maybe it is not so strange he does not have time to make a world better if he is doing that all days long :-P

every microbe every insect? what a huge jop

do think god ability like human ??

you think that because your mind can't imagian how god can do that

but for your information

god created the time so noneed the time to do anything he want



you said

And you say why are not black child being born by white parents and the opposite. What kind of question is that? This is basic in Evolution that kids get many of their parents abilities. The don't just have same color, but also similar look and similar abilities. But never exactly the same persons. This is what natural selection uses. The small differences. There is nothing in Darwinism that says two black parents will have a white child sometimes! That would be completely against the teaching. We are talking pure Darwinism here.0

no you didn't understand my question

i know why ?

but my question is i can to expect the color or the hair or ...etc of any baby by his father and his mother

but i can't to know his personality in his body like me and you this is big question



you said

#The reason why you are born one year and not another. What is that? It makes no sense and you sound quite confused there. If it is because problems with the language, than I hope someone can help to make me understand. Don't judge my mind as weak. I think with my own brain and I am in the minority no matter where in the world I am. I hope you understand that it takes some kind of strength to be in that position and not just follow what your own parents and the society you live in says. You may call me stupid, if you think so, but than you have to try talking smarter than me. But don't call me weak. 0

what is that ???

no problem in my language

but didn't understand

i was born in 1982 in aden yemen

why i did'nt born in 1756 paris france

1656,2890,.....etc

why


the big question is


why i born in this life

it is possible to come this life and go without give me a life

why ????

i wish to understand me now

and i don't judge your mind

sorry if u understood my saying mean you

i say the truth our minds

are still weak can't understand all thing in this world and universe

not mean your mind dear !!!


i noted you always say your parents choice

do know who is my father

my father was communist

he lived in ussr ( sovit union)

in from 1973 to 1978

and my uncle esstablished the yemeni socialist party in south yemen from 1967 until 1989

my father was atheists also my uncle

and i live in the book of carl marx and angels and lenin .

this is my truth dear

Next thing: If you really mean that you don't want to live if life has no higher meaning, than I don't want to debate with you anymore. I don't want to open your eyes and make you become suicide, or loose the lust to live. I don't want to have you at my conscience. I really mean it. So if you really mean that, than we stop here and I let you live in your fantasy. I really don't care about that, but it is a big shame that so many people preferto live that way. 0

i mean that your believe make the life without meaning

and why you don't want to debate with me

hahahaha

dear friend

i'm read many book of athiesim from charles darwin to dawkins to sarter and other

don't think that i will be athiest in anyday or i will suicide

this life in my body i didn't created so who created me in this life he is only has the right to take my life

and my last word to u dear

i'm not live in fantasy i libe in the truth way

at all

this is my last message to u because as i told u

i can't to continue

for many reasons

my brother ibn alsunnah and doctor husam hamed will continue with u in this debate

nice to meet u dear

realy

i hope to know the truth

your friend ashbely

[ابن السنة]

Dear Charlie
I can give you my definition to justice
It is all what God does and order

You cannot say this is wrong by any means

About stealing and cutting hands, these are things in Sharia and has some conditions to be fulfilled before. You just go and look at the last scene in the movie.
ِAnd these are rulings like the law. It is for the sake of the whole community not because of what you said
Whatever your opinion about Capital punishment, cutting hands: It is all your opinion. I cannot force you to change it . But I still consider them as fair and just.
And since there is no "materialistic " definition for justice and since every atheist has his own view of the world then you can't deny others opinions

Yes, Ibn Alsunnah, I learn a lot here and it confirms my suspecting that I had from the start. .

Which is let me guess that there is no God

Some people believe in god simply because they want and because it is very hard to stand against something that all the society you live in is saying.

We said previously that this is true but still this is not a prove of anything.
People who are born in a socialist country will likely be a socialist
what does that mean
?
Nothing

I could put here any evidence at all against god and you would still believe in him.

Well I remember that Dr Hossam asked you to put such an evidence

So please put your evidence

But did you ever ask yourself a question like this: Why are all religions wrong, but only my is true? That was one of my first thoughts

Yes I did
If I said for example that I was a Christian and converted to Islam because I am sure that Islam is the true religion would you then think this is great
?
Do I have to change my religion to impress others
?
I was born for muslim parents, but at some age I started asking questions and I found my answers in Islam. Is that strange
?

Analyze your own religion like you would analyze the others.

I don't like to go and criticize others. I always try to find excuses for others.
But at the end that doesn't mean I have to leave Islam. Yes I believe that others have corrupted their religion but that doesn't mean that they are my enemies
And I ask God that I can help them as I can to show them the true path.

Anyway, this is very far away from our discussion which I believe came to an end

Actually, I don't know if you in the last message is talking to me or someone else

I gave you my evidence that God exists and at the end you said you are following your parents and criticizing others

Is that your answer to my arguments
???
Anyway, I told you before you have the freewill to accept or refuse

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah