:-)

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ibn Alsunnah
The problem with your chain of happenings is that it does not give ny answer at all. For the first we can not know the past by asking what was before, because we can not see so far. The other problem is that it does not give any answer of the cause. Religious answer at the final cause Cn can even by a child be asked: "But why did that happen?". That mean, if you say God started it, a curious child can ask, "But how did he do that?", or... "But who created God?" You get two difficult questions, that you can not answer without using either words "Eternity" or "came from nothing" and those are two words that you deny, only because you need to deny them to find a God in the story. So you tied up yourself in the logic. This you can not deny. Can you? Best regards, from Charlie

[Charlie1965]

Wow, so many messages today :-D Thanks a lot guys. Hope I have time to answer them all, one by one and excuse me if I forget something . Please remind me if I forget to answer at something important... I try my best. Charlie

[ابن السنة]

Hi Ibn Alsunnah
The problem with your chain of happenings is that it does not give ny answer at all. For the first we can not know the past by asking what was before, because we can not see so far. The other problem is that it does not give any answer of the cause. Religious answer at the final cause Cn can even by a child be asked: "But why did that happen?". That mean, if you say God started it, a curious child can ask, "But how did he do that?", or... "But who created God?" You get two difficult questions, that you can not answer without using either words "Eternity" or "came from nothing" and those are two words that you deny, only because you need to deny them to find a God in the story. So you tied up yourself in the logic. This you can not deny. Can you? Best regards, from Charlie

Dear Charlie
I didn't try to answer the question "What was before the universe?" . My original question was If there is something before the universe or not? and we agreed based on pure logic that answer is yes. And we also agreed that we will not say it is God for the time because based on pure logic it is just a cause
right
?
Then the question which flows smoothly was " Does this cause was caused by another cause and so on going to infinity
you replied that this is possible
and my reply was that this is impossible and I tried to explain that an infinite chain of causes and effects is not possible at all

Please Note that I didn't talk about God
Lets move step by step please
Do you think that an infinite chain of causes and events is possible
?
Please let the answer be either No ( then I will understand that you understood my arguments) or Yes it can happen because of such and such

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah#

[ابن السنة]

A side note Charlie
I see you confuse between two major things here
1- Reasoning and understanding
2- visualizing and imagining
visualizing and imagining is not taken into account in our discussion because they always mislead
Examples
A great mind like Maxwell "imagined" Electromagnetics wave as stresses in a material called ether
which turned to be false
A false image of an electron is a "sphere" of charge

Do you imagine a particle moving in a four dimensional space
?
No one can do so, although physicists do analyze these type of problems based on logic and reason

I will ask you a very simple question
We all know that this cable which feeds your computer with electricity supplies energy to your machine
Please point to where is energy in the cable
Can you do that
?
My discussion is based on the first type
understanding and reasoning
yes sure we can build images to what we discuss but don't let these images mislead you at the end
And please remember that I didn't say that God came out of nothing or God is eternal by the way you understand what "eternal" is
Remember also that "eternal" is not against logic because even atheists accept the concept and they attribute it to matter
Let me remind you of what you said previously

After I switched off the pc I was thinking a little more of your question. I want to correct my answer a bit. Due to Einstein material is just a form of energy and energy can not be lost or gained, it can just transform from one form to another. What exploded in Big Banng could not be really created at that moment, but was a huge package of energy, packed in a very small object (whatever we want to call it). So, due to Einstein, energy is eternal and therefore, the answer I woul prephere there. It is not agains BIg Bang theory. It has to be a part if it. I recently read a book about Big Bang, and id never says this must be the start of everything, but the start of the universe as we know it now.

Dear Charlie I guess your main point is that at the end we have to stop at some point. You believers assume an extra step that there is a Creator and when you are asked ok how did he come into being you cannot answer
and since this extra assumption is not seen then it is just a claim
So
I (atheist) prefer to stop at what I can see and we don't need your extra assumption guys
right
?

Charlie, up to this point I didn't mention God in my discussion. Please just forget your question about who created God at this point. Although the answer to this question is very easy but I am afraid that because of the way you visualize God based on your Christian- atheistic background you will not understand it

Anyway I will give you the answer but we will not talk about it now
The question
Who Created God
?
Muslim: God is the Creator and the creator cannot be created so the question is wrong
You: Wait here I will say the same about the universe. The universe cannot be created and the question is wrong
Muslim: No Because the universe is not a creator. If you think that the universe is a creator then please point to this ability in the universe to create
The universe according to atheists is just matter and energy and everything is controlled by physical laws
So can these rules create themselves\
?
You remind me of Turning machine
Anyway this was just a side note
Thanks
Ibn Alsunnah

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ahmed,
Of course 2 people can not have the same order in DNA since the chain is so long and complicated that even by pure random it will not happen. I heard about the numbers of how many different combinations there was, but I don't have the number now. We are talking about numbers far more than there are stars in the universe, or something like that. If you spread a pot of sand at the floor, the peaces will never fall all in exactly the same position to each other. Nothing strange with that.
About dinosaurs and birds. For the first, please don't say scientists deny something they don't deny. Religion denies it, but sometimes I wonder in what kind of school did you go guys, when you talk like that. Only an Islamic school? Read any scientific magazine in the world, that is not published by religious organizations and you will see it is all about evolution. No one denies it there. They analyze how it works and are fascinated by it. But back to the animal that evolved to start flying. The feathers that birds need to fly actually did not have that function from the start. Science is quite sure about this, because many species of smaller dinosaurs (and some bigger) had feathers that did not work for flying at all, but were excellent for keeping them warm. Some animals hairs evolved into something like dune feathers, to keep the animal warm and this function works great. Feathers keep the body warm better than the hair. Some of the small dinosaurs were tree climbers and jumped from tree to tree like a squirrel. When having a wide feather plumage they could maybe glide a little longer and this benefited them from individuals that had a poor plumage. In the long run, because they had "better genes" they became more and more common compared to those with poor feather plumage. After a while the feathers evolved to more and more the shape of feathers that birds have, meaning flat feathers (not dunes) that made it easier to glide and steer their flying and in the long run we had animals that actively could fly, meaning birds. But birds were not the only animals (nor the first ones) to start flying. Insects for example were much before them. I don't understand what do you mean, that this in strange? No one said that insects fly because they need to escape birds. There can be many reasons and benefits to fly, like easier moving from one feeding place to another, fleeing from other insect, or lizzards that wants to eat them, or impressing at the female. There are actually insects were only males can fly. So I don't understand in what way this should be controversial? o
Ahmed, please be careful using words like "insane" about something you obviously don't even understand. I would like to use it for religious ideas. For me that is insane, but that is not an argument. That is what we feel and think, but it means nothing in the debate. What is the problem of birds getting light bones with holes? This is a very easy thing for the evolution if you give it time. A heavy has more difficulties to fly. As we said before, genes are never same in two individuals. That means that some individuals easily could have get bones with some holes, because of a "mistake". Let's say that in everything else this bird was completely normal and could successfully raise the next generation. Some of it's chicks got the same "error", but in real life it shows that this was good for them. They were therefore more successful, in hunting, or fleeing, or if they migrated, the used less energy for that. In the long run more and more individuals will exist and in the end completely take over. Easy task for evolution and it does not even need to origin from just one species. Many different species could have "invented " such an easy thing as the holes in the bones independently, just like different species invented the flight. It is not insane. It is very logical.0
About Arhaeopteryx. It was indeed a completely normal animal, but it had some things that differs from any bird of today. For example it had a tail like a lizard. All birds today have tails that consist of feathers only. Arhaeopteryx tail did have feathers too, but growing at a lizard's tail. You will not find any fossils in transitional form as you call it. This is a big misunderstanding (probably intentional by religion) that evolution goes forward by creating species that will look for example like a fish with a mammals head, or whatever you want. Evolution goes in very small steps and all the steps, all the species are completely normal, well functioning. If not, than they will soon be erased by natural selection. Nothing strange that Arhaeopteryx is a normal animal, even though it has characteristic of both birds and lizards.
Best regards from Charlie#

[Charlie1965]

Hi Mr,,,, ehm.... With the coin sign (or whatever it is) o
It is nice that Quran says world is a globe. But, what you maybe don't know is that even long before Quran there were ideas like that. A Greek mathematician named Eratosthenes even calculated the size of the earth, by using the angle of the sun shadow falling down on earth at two different places, in what today is Egypt. And he was very near the true number. He calculated that the circle around earth was about 38 500 km (if I remember correct) while the truth is around 40 000 km. Very impressing and this happened l don't remember the exact year, but let's say about 1000 years before Mohammad. and the Quran. 0
I am sure there are many correct things in Quran like in every religious book, but it does not make it spectacular in any way. Is it true that some versus starts with "There is no God..."? It should have stopped there. That would differ it from other religious books and make it very interesting for people of that time who almost all believed in one God or another, because they did not know better.
Best regards from Charlie

[Charlie1965]

Hi again Mr Ashbely, ( I see you are Mr coin) 0
We think, stones don't. We differ. But what I mean by soul is something that will keep our mids alive after we are dead. I don't see how are mind would live on after death, so I don't believe in soul. Still we think while we are alive. But after we die, we think just as much as we did before we were born. That means we don't think at all. Not so fun maybe, but life is not what we want it to be, but what it is in fact. 0
About Einstein, he said that material is just a form of energy. A huge package of energy. His formula E=mc2 explains the relation between them two, for someone who is better at mathematics than I am ;-) Our minds contain of a huge number of electrical signals in our brain. When it is damaged after we die, you can not restore it. It is gone forever, weather we like it or not. Scary but true. That is why people want to believe in religion. It promises something better than reality does. We are often weak to fall for someone who offers us something better. You are free to choose, but I prefer to live in reality and I hope some of you will have courage to make that choice as well. Best regards from Charlie

[Charlie1965]

I need to make a break here, but I will work on later. Thanks for your questions and for reading my messages. Talk to you later guys. Best regards from Charlie :-) o.#

[Charlie1965]

HI again Ashbely,

Who let you alive? What do you mean with that? Who has to let you alive? Who let alive every microbe, or every insect at the world? You think there is a God deciding about who will be born and who not? What a huge job to decide about everyone of the billions and billions of insects. Is he sitting there thinking for each case,... shall this bug have babies? Ok... I let him get them today... How many.. I give him 256.... "Next one please". Very fun....
Why are you not born some other year? Another fun question. Because you are born in the year...maybe 2004, because you think like a child sometimes...hehehe. But I don't understand what difference it would make if you were born another year... 0
You say you don't want to live if your life has no meaning. I want. We have to find a meaning and I feel sorry for people who can not find a meaning by themselves. Get a hobby or something. Try to learn about real world. Try to help people around you to have a happier life. Fight for human rights. Fight to protect the environment so that your children will live in a better world. There are so many ways to find happiness. Buddhist say that real happiness is when you learn how to be happy by helping others. I am not a Buddhist, but I like that idea. There are nice things in Islam too and other religions aswell. Life is very exciting. Find a challenge that will inspire you. If really religion is your only inspiration to live, than you have problems that day when you realize there is no God. Find your strength in real world. It is worth living in reality too :-) 0
I am truly sorry about your brother who died before he was born. Life is not fair. It often strikes against those who least deserve it. In this case a completely innocent child and people like you and your family who I believe did not deserve it either. No one deserves to die. It happens anyway. What is meaning with that? No meaning at all. There is no meaning with life beside life itself. If it works, life goes on. If not, it stops living. No higher power behind that. Best regards from Charlie

[Charlie1965]

Hi Mr.... long mail... Please guys make it a habit to sign your messages so I know who I speak to. I know you see your names in Arab letters, but I don't see that. I will understand while reading who it is, but please make it easier for me. 0

Back to the message. Wow... so long... I hope I can reply a bit shorter ;-) o
Well I am sure, if there was one single evidence that God existed, than it would have been shown everywhere and to everyone. I would not need to read what all believers did write. And an evidence would convince something very close to 100% of the population (there are even people who don't believe that humans landed on the moon and people who believe Elvis is alive, so maybe we would not reach 100% anyway) That is why I am sure there can not be any evidence. I would win a bet, right? 0 On the contrary there are evidences that Evolution works. We use it to change species by ourselves. We don't need God to do it for us. The main reason why some people still believe in God is that they simply want to do it. It is a nicer idea. 0
About the son and the book and God and the world. It is not that I don't believe in God because I did not see him creating the world. I did not see my mother give me a birth, but I believe she did because it is VERY likely. I did not see Napoleon loose the battle at Waterloo, but I believe it because it is likely that he did. I did not see Pluto but I believe it exists out there. It is VERY likely id does. But the idea of God is only likely if you choose to believe what you want to believe in. God is not likely. He is extremely unlikely and therefore I need a better "evidence" than "How can something exist if not created by a God?" I know evolution works while religion says, everything was created by god and Animals did not evaluate, but were created as they are. This is wrong . What else do you need to hear? 0
#As I told before. If religions would include evolution in the creation and say "God stated it all and started the evolution of species", than it would be more difficult for me or anyone else to debate against such religion. But religion does not say that. It says God created the species as they are right now. If holy books are wrong, than they are not holy at all. 0
You claim that creation of species is POSSIBLE. Well, that is maybe possible for science in the future. But for a single force that needs to be created by itself and create complete world with millions of species + everything else, that is EXTREMELY IMPOSSIBLE. We haven't seen anyone do that and we will never see it either. It simply does not make sense if you are honest to yourself. 0
About Darwin. I will try make it even shorter than your reply. It is not just not important in what he believed. It is not even important if he ever so said "I was wrong", which he of course never did. He showed us the idea how species evaluate and that can not be taken back, not even by him. Because we see the evidences in real. He is not a prophet whose words we blindly trust in. He is a human who showed us the way to the water in the dessert. If he denies it later, the water will still be there. Evolution is not accepted because " a prophet said it exists", but because we know it works in real. We use its principals to change the species. We follow the evolution throughout the past of the earth, by looking and fossils and we the genetics has shown why it works.0
What I meant by comparing Darwin's work with Quran is that Darwin's work would have been done by someone else if he was not born while Quran or Bible if you want so, would never been written if Mohammad or Jesus never were born (whoever wrote the book itself). You can ignore this comment, because this is just my opinion that I impossibly can prove.0
#About Oxford. I did not show you the site as an evidence that Darwinism is correct. I showed it because some people here deny that science admits Darwin's teaching. That was a good way to show those claims are false. Only that. Don't blame me for replying in a best way for a false statement that others do here. The site is not an Evidence for evolution, but an evidence for the scientific view at that topic.0
Evolution could be included in the religion, but the problem is that it is not! Any religion that would include all modern scientific discoveries would be difficult to debate agains. But the false facts in religios teaching makes it difficult for you guys to defend it. This is a reply to your claim about the surgery and the fortune. I already talked about this, so I will not prolong it.0
To my son... you know how I will prove him if he is too stupid to believe in something that is very likely? I would do the same thing with the book some other day in the same situation and record everything with a hidden video camera. Than I show him the movie. Is that good enough, or is he so stupid to not believe in what he sees? o
If he still does not believe, than I should send him to a doctor I think ;-) 0

Finally, I understand you can not reply every day. We all have our lives to live beside this forum. But see how I have. I have now 4-5 people writing quite long or sometimes very long messages. It is tiering, but also very interesting. I try my best. It takes a lot of my time, but I enjoy it. I have full respect that you can not be here all the time and I hope you all understand me if I am sometimes slow to reply, or some day do not reply at all. Best regards from Charlie :-) 0

[Charlie1965]

Hi again Ibn Alsunnah,0
To put your question in some other way, you ask me if there is eternity. Am I right? Due to Einstein and the energy that can not be lost or gained, I have to admit that maybe eternity is possible. But, I can not be sure. We are talking about a cosmological problem at the edge of what science knows today. I would not claim that I have a good answer here. I am not sure. If you are, and can show it, than you should be working at NASA ;-) o Best regards from Charlie :-) o

[أحمد فتحي الموحد]

a little point here: when i say insane (the evolution) i say it because i cant believe in randoomness and coinsidence, like you when you dont believe in god (same idea), is not because i'am religious, but open-minded... so....sorry,

*when i say; that "thing" is denied by scientist i dont say 100% of them deny it.. so let's make it clair... ok?

let's go back...

We are talking about numbers far more than there are stars in the universe, or something like that. If you spread a pot of sand at the floor, the peaces will never fall all in exactly the same position to each other. Nothing strange with that.

ok, and when i say that : evolution can not and well not give us the answer of the formation of a single protein by chance you reject it!, so why, you still talking about it, like we took an book, and we go trrought the final chapter trying to understand the whol hystory!! so, i think, you must think about it,

Many different species could have "invented " such an easy thing as the holes in the bones independently, just like different species invented the flight. It is not insane. It is very logical

invented? how invent here, the creature, the evolution process, how is the inventor here?

so.. can you answer me, how can flies, or what ever you want from insect have the great systeme of flying, before
the dinausors have it..

i wait your answer...


ahmed

[Charlie1965]

HI again Ibn Alsunnah,

My head is heavy and I am getting tired, but it is difficult to stop this intresting debate. Damn, the stupid internet had an error ans I lost the message that was almost finnished... so i have to rewrite it :-( o
Anyway, I will just concentrate on few things here and skip the topics where I feel we are stuck. 0
Time is usually being considered as a 4th dimension by the way. Than it is easy to understand it.0
Energy in the cable is everywhere in it, but only when when the power is switched on. It is like a river that is moving. but the material itself is not moving in the cable. It is a wave of electrons going through the material that usually is copper or aluminium. I am not a physician to give you a nicer explanation. What was your pint here? 0 I will continue in next message because I need to copy some of your text and last time I did it, i lost the whole message. I don't want to risk it again.... to be continued... o

[Charlie1965]

The question
Who Created God
?
Muslim: God is the Creator and the creator cannot be created so the question is wrong
You: Wait here I will say the same about the universe. The universe cannot be created and the question is wrong
Muslim: No Because the universe is not a creator. If you think that the universe is a creator then please point to this ability in the universe to create
The universe according to atheists is just matter and energy and everything is controlled by physical laws
So can these rules create themselves\
?

Why can not a creator be created? How can something exist if it is not created? You talk about creator that must be a lot more advanced than anything in the universe and you say he just appeared from nothing!? 0
Ok. if I buy your explenation that such an advanced creature can exist without being created than it is far more easy to understand that the material can exist without creation. We have the evidence that is exists even, but we have no evidence that would make it even likely that God exists.
You ask about the ability of the universe to create. I just say Evolution. I also say chemical processes. I also say radioactivity. I say nuclear reactions. They all go on out there and here on eart. Why? Can you even imagine anything existing without any rules? I mean anything... sand in the dessert, air, or water.... or sounds, or whatever you want. Can it exist without any rules at all? It is not even possible to imagine that it can. And since we have something than it follows the natural rules, and by the time organize itself without any God steering it. 0 If you accept this than you took a first step to understand that material can organize by itself without any god and you took a first step to understand how universe works. No need to complicate things with a God.
And finally why are you asking me if natural laws can create themselves? Why are you not asking if God can create himself or create natural laws? Be critical to yourself when making a question. Best regards from Charlie#

[Charlie1965]

Hi Ahmed, I used the words "invented" with the signs " before and after it. It means I don't mean literally that someone invented it. I just used the word to simplify the language. I thought everyone understood that, but i was obviously wrong.0

About the flying insects. I don't understand what is the problem. No one ever claimed that it should not be that way. Many species of animals "invented" - you see the signs?- the ability to fly independent from the other group. Bats also fly and they did not origin from birds at all. 0
Would be nice if someone of the other Muslims here would help me to reply some messages that even a Muslim see that they are wrong, like this with "invented". Some kind person could have helped and explained to you Ahmed what symbols "" mean. I would have appreciated that.0
Best regards from Charlie