:-)

If you make a conclusion that one god exists, then it is logical for you to believe there is one god, obviously.
But if you simply state that the universe is a result of some divine power, this power could be from one as well as from many entities.
if you know that one god is a possibility, then more of them would not be a problem either (just like the universe of ours raises suggestions that more universes are possible). Secondly, gods could create gods.
The only arguments you have against that are: A. God is perfect. B. 1 god is a simpler and less complicated answer that more gods. So you accused me of overcomplicating things and then you just added a problematic feature which is totally unproven to exist at all - perfectness. Just because my world sucks surely doesn’t mean god is not perfect, but it also doesn’t mean he is perfect. And it is your responsibility to prove he is, which you can’t possibly do.
And yes, this world is not perfect, just because it somehow works doesn’t mean anything. We are not talking about things working. We are talking about perfectness. A perfect thing can not become a subject of further improvements. And this universe obviously can. There are lots of things which don’t work well in it or could work better. Even DNA has flaws. You chose the laws of physics as an example - well perhaps gods can’t violate those. Or those laws are temporary - after all we don’t know about the laws of physics from before the universe. Plus those laws don’t work in a perfect way, unless you can prove they couldn’t be better.
And then you added another argument - that god created us flawed for a purpose - this seems like adding another unnecessary element/argument overcomplicating the story. And it is again without evidence.

And of course, I have presented zero facts, just some propositions on the way. But so did you. And this was my aim from the beginning of this particular topic, to point out that MONOTHEISM IS AS CREDIBLE AND LOGICAL AS POLYTHEISM.
And you even supported that:
this is our believe no more what evidence you need in that? !!

And any statement from the Quran undergoes the same evaluation statements from outside of it would. So it doesn’t really matter whether it talks about god, perfectness and heaven, as long as those claims can not be verified.
Also:
I do not see any circular on the subject
- Circular logic is when you use faith based claims to support faith based claims. And this is what you did. You may find that logical but it is really irrelevant. There can be no more gods than one (not a fact) because god has to be perfect (not a fact) and because perfectness rejects many gods (again not a fact).

If you look to Islamic (or religious) teachings, all of them are for morality and rules to define our life... this is a whole different topic so I will not start it here.
I will gladly discuss MORALITY now unless you want to continue with polytheism.

well, that made my day.
If we came to the conclusion that God exist, the logic is to believe in one God by default unless someone can prove there are multiple Gods. No need to pre-complicating the solution.

BTW, you have presented zero facts, not sure what you meant by your line over there.The world is not perfect? Ok, but please define "perfect world" if you can... NO ONE can do. However, the Quran did describe perfect world and named it heaven... reaching it is the purpose of Islam.

However, you made a wrong assumption which is the creator does not need to be perfect. No facts or anything to support that besides "My world sucks, that means the one who created is not perfect" or whatever baseless beliefs. God can never be anything but perfect and flawless... so even arguing about god/gods that are not perfect (like you did) is just wrong.

Why is that? I can give some answers like if the creator is not perfect, meaning that he makes mistakes just like any non-perfect thing... Then, where do you find ANY mistake like that in the universe?! No one can see any mistake.

Now, you said "the world" is not perfect... the world is ruled and inhibited by us humans... and we are sinful creatures by default just like God himself told us. And the only way we can be better than that sinful nature is to follow his commands.

If you look to Islamic (or religious) teachings, all of them are for morality and rules to define our life... this is a whole different topic so I will not start it here.

Finally, I hope you reach the truth one day because all humans have the right to be in God's heaven.

I apologize that was a few sentences meaning is not clear to you,,
I was hasty Only then,,
If it is not clear the meaning of any statement Tell me about them, for the sake of re-revised, for you, God willing ..

it's not for just me at all
this is our believe no more what evidence you need in that? !!

This is your perspective on this issue
And it has exist difference that we see between the God we worship as our Lord and the rest of the other names that launched human beings on the other

I can give you evidence of our texts legitimacy of this is that if you want,, but this is the only conclusion

God is the one who puts the laws of the universe
Such as gravity and other
If it finds any defect in it then probably we know that there are more than God
But we find such norms are going in all the universe, such as the knife is not hampered by any obstacle
This Profile your perspective as a man,, because you say about what you do not know it randomly,, but for God,, every stone or atom placed in the right location, which he wants from the beginning.
Versa of controls in such a universe must be complete ..

I do not speak again by default at all,, I explain to you my faith,, which "is not subject to discussion," and you receive Him or reject it as you want for yourself later ..
I do not see any circular on the subject
I find it just a logical hierarchy
You get lost with yourself from the questions do not relate to what I'm saying to you
القرآن هو الدليل الذي تطلبه ،، ان لم تستطع التعامل مع كونه موجودا بين الحين والآخر ،، فلا تطالبني به .
Quran is the evidence that you require,, if you can not deal with being located between now and then,, Do not ask me to do.

I forgot to mention:
In many pagan beliefs gods actually fought against each other and some of those fights had impacts on humans.

Here are your claims:
1. God has to be perfect.
2. A perfect god would make it impossible for other gods to coexist.
3. More gods would struggle on the basis of which one is better/perfect or which one should be the leader.
YOUR STATEMENTS MAKE NO SENSE. PROVE ANY OF THOSE, OTHERWISE YOU ARE JUST MAKING STUFF UP.
And how do you know gods don’t struggle? This universe could just be a work of some of them, it is also not a perfect world so it doesn’t require perfect creators (I actually gave you an argument based on a fact here). They might be above us but don’t have to be perfect.
What you know are baseless beliefs, so this can’t be called knowledge. And I repeat myself because you don’t realize it. You are too limited to your scriptures to see other possibilities which are as probable in this hypothetical talk we are having. By introducing such arguments, you really make it feel more and more your religion is man-made. Don’t you have anything better? Just take a look at your logic:
There is only one god (baseless belief) because god has to be perfect (baseless belief), and because more gods would struggle (baseless belief; also there is a probability actually have struggled which is independent from your perception).
A belief supporting a belief supporting a belief - do you know what this is called? Circular logic = fallacy.
DON'T EVER MENTION ANYTHING FROM THE QURAN UNLESS YOU CAN PROVE IT WORKS.

Cheers.

It seems that you have an imbalance in the understanding of my purpose:

I- talking about denial, "the possibility of" the presence of more than God (to the collision between the need perfection among themselves - if they are - in government and other)
(This is the reason for the impossibility of polytheism)
= You imagine I proved plurality,, understand this error.
= You imagine the existence of a hierarchy,, I am talking about only one God.
= The existence of more than one God means that all God's presence in perfection challenged the divinity of all of them (this is why the impossibility of polytheism).

If found true God,, there would be no other
All others impossible, described by the gods after him
This speech just repeat
the Respond to it very clear
know God's message to you and then carried out.
Without your knowledge will continue to be lost in this world of suspicious possibilities .

I would love to tear apart each of your arguments separately so the discussion will be clear and brief.

First monotheism vs. polytheism.
You said gods would mention their existence if there were more of them. Then we have pagans who believed in many gods. You could assume those gods revealed themselves to those men. Also some gods could care to communicate with us while others wouldn't.
You believe there would be some need for a referee among gods, and that is also the case in many pagan religions. For instance, Odin was the father of all gods in Scandinavian myths, just like Zeus in Greek ones, while Ra for ancient Egyptians was one of the main figures.
But what is the worst in your argument is that you try to apply rules from within human societies, where hierarchy is often necessary, to divine beings!!! Now this is just outrageous! Why would divine beings need any referee? Aren't they super intelligent and super powerful? Can’t they teamwork if they feel so without a leader? If you say they can’t, you are denying their abilities you can’t even dream of.
Also, perhaps your god is real, but he is just one of many, possibly too selfish to admit it. Or he is simply dishonest, because he is testing you and your ability to think instead of blind believing.
And since you failed to note what I noted, you will suffer for that for all eternity.

I shall wait for your response to this part before moving on to the next argument.

Because they said they were more than a god,, will disputing among themselves on the referee and to be as the King of the universe and other,,

but we do not see any impact of that conflict in the laws of the universe, which mean and requires one and only one god.

otherwise it will be a Corruption

قال تعالى :
[لَوْ كَانَ فِيهِمَا آَلِهَةٌ إِلَّا اللَّهُ لَفَسَدَتَا فَسُبْحَانَ اللَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَرْشِ عَمَّا يَصِفُونَ (22)]
سورة الأنبياء

But we do not find any of that..
In fact, it must be God shows us the message, but without it we would not know good from evil - from what we are required to do -.

To settle this matter:
Will,We already have a Specific Message from him now called the Qura'n, what you are will be doing in this regard?

1. perhaps, try to prove it, the Quran in front of you (in Arabic only).
2. If they are, it will not be such miracles as the Quran
3. he could destroy us all the time, why did not he do? !!
4. We are pleased to happy him,, precaution from him is always better

2. discovered that if you can, there is no wrong message without errors certainly
3. so Discover that too if you can,, proved Man always fault,, and the Quran defies human beings and requires them to obtain even a single error since the 14 century without any error even today.
4. worship of God will not be a big problem then.
5. God does not lie,, and does not need to lie originally, lying is a tool for the weak and impotent, God is not , but why Speech in the details that God is Already clarified to us with something else.

Not a question of the large number of possibilities,, but,, follow the right question you did not follow the right, you deal with the potential only in spite of being a living in the real fact,, you must have to deal with the facts of being compared to the live,,

I am as a Muslim, earning in all cases:
- If there is a God, then I'm a endorsers so
- If there is no God, then I did not lose something eventually
Unlike your doing, you:
- If there is a God, you will be in purgatory on disobeying
- If there is no God, you are not doing something for yourself in any case,

I have to answer in detail, not to prolong the ramifications Thread,, but for your convenience of a lot of points that are not only unnecessary.

have a Good faith

I will gladly continue from here:

1st step: the existence of the Creator. => We are here now.
2nd step: the rule we have in this planet.
3ed step: there must be a massage for the Creator to us to know our purpose here.

FIRST OF ALL: WHY JUST ONE CREATOR? WHY NOT MORE?
How is one creator more possible than 2, 5 or 200?

If step 1 and 2 are true, there is still no need for a message from the creator.
That would only depend on his approach towards us. He may care or not about us. And even if he cares, he may not care the way you think he does.

If god or gods don't care:
1. The message is man-made.
2. The message comes from another source which is not god but possibly some other entity. It could be some evil force.
3. You annoy that god or gods when praying possibly also because your religion is wrong.
4. He or they like your prayer even though your religion is still false

If god or gods really care about us:
1. Your scenario can be true
2. A religion other than yours can be true
3. The message may still be man-made, since you don't know how god or gods care about you. Maybe they care after you die only and you are not supposed to receive any messages from them now or try to contact them
4. It could be a message from another source again. God or gods don't interfere, it is up to you to decide whether you want to take a risk or not.
5. The message is partly untrue. God or gods lied to you to see whether you are silly enough to buy it or not. If so, you don't deserve his/their attention and happiness in the afterlife.

I gave here at least 8 possibilities (there are obviously many more). Only two of them lead you to heaven or perhaps some profit. In case of others you just waste your time as a Muslim or you ask for trouble.
Just on the basis of probability, being a Muslim is not a good choice.

Cheers!

Ok, no problem. You could have just told me.

اذن قد فهمت معاناتي في الترجمة اللغوية لكي تصل اليك سليمة بحمد الله ،،
لذا رجاء حاول مستقبلا الالتزام بأقصر اجابة ممكنه لكل سؤال وعدم التكرار،،
فكثير مما تسأل عنه له ردود قصيرة لن تفهمها حتى ان ترجمتها لك في مقالة كبيرة ، لأن معناها سيضيع ،،

الطريق البديل هو الردود القصيرة المنطقية والحاسمة فقط ،، ولكن يعيبها انك يجب ان تأخذها بترتيبها دون زيادة او نقصان.

So you may understand now my suffering in language translator in order to reach to you praise God,,
So please try in the future commitment to the shortest possible answer for each question and the non-repetition,,
Many than ask for his short responses you will not understand it until I translate that in a big article, but the meaning would be lost mostly,,
The alternative route is to respond in short, decisive and logical but flawed, because you should take them arranged without an increase or decrease.

Tak się składa, kolego, że angielski nie jest i moim ojczystym językiem.
Ale nie przyszło mi jakoś do głowy, żeby pisać do ciebie po polsku, z oczywistych powodَw - Ty po polsku prawdopodobnie nie mَwisz, więc i wszystkiego o co mi chodzi nie zrozumiesz.

I z tego właśnie powodu ja nie zamierzam niczego tutaj sobie tłumaczyć.
Nie mَwię już nawet o czystej uprzejmości - no ale jak widać, co kraj to obyczaj.

Czekam na "normalną" odpowiedź.
Miłego dnia.

المعنى هو الوصول لهذه المشاركة منك بالتحديد ،، لأنك تسهب في تفصيلات فرعية سأحتاج للاجابة عليها الكثير من الوقت الذي يمكنني اختصاره لك بالعربية ،، طالما تريد اطالة أمد الحوار في فرعيات تافهة ،، (وهذا هو اختيارك اصلا لا اختياري : لهذا فهو يعتبر مهذبا جدا ،، لاسيما عندما اسمح للقراء عندي أيضا بمتابعة الحوار ذاته كذلك ،، وبالخصوص لأنك تريد الاستعراض الفكري والتكرار دوما ، فتأخذ مني ما تستحقه على حقيقته)

وكأنك يمكنك تسمية بعضها !!

لا توجد كل هذه الاحتمالات ،، انت تضحك على نفسك بالرقم التصوري/التخيلي فقط ،، عندما تتكلم عن الكون ضع مكانه حرف س واخبرني ماذا يمكنه ان يخلق س ويجعله حقيقة واقعه ملموسة امام ناظريك ،، اذا عندك سبب "حقيقي" فقله لنا ،، وان لم تمتلك مثل هذا السبب فعليك الاذعان لـ"حقيقة" وجود خالق بالضرورة لهذا : الـ"س" أو الكون في هذه الحالة ..
اخبرتك من قبل ان لا تعيد شرح معتقدي الاسلامي فانت جاهل به كما هو واضح واعادتك لمثل هذه الشروح واقحامك لها داخل حوار وسؤال عن خلق الكون مضحك جدا ،، (وهذا من ضمن ما تقول عنه انه غير مهذب بالمناسبة) ،، كل هذا الكلام لا داعي له مطلقا في هذا السياق -هذا ان كان صدقا- ،، ونظرتنا الاسلامية تمتلك جانب "واقعي" انت تغفل عنه عمدا بهذا الصدد وتريد منع اظهاره للقراء من حولك -وهو ليس مشكلتي اطلاقا-

الجانب الواقعي في نظرتنا الاسلامية : هو ان الكون لابد له من خالق ،، ابحث بالعلم او بدون العلم ولابد للعاقل ان يصل لهذه الحقيقة لا محالة .

وسألتك في ذلك قبلا : وأنت لا تريد ان تجيبني عن السؤال بمن يمكنه ذلك ؟؟!!
-فضلا عن ان العلم يقرر لنا انه يستحيل في الكون الظهور من عدم فجأة-

لذا فان لم تكن لديك اجابه فعلى الأقل ،، افهم ردي بشأنه وتقبله على ما هو عليه ولا تشغب عليه او تفهمه بفهم خطأ مغاير .
ثم لاحقا ، اقبله او ارفضه فهذا شأنك : فانا لا احاور هنا لاقنعك فيه انا احاور لعرض المبدأ للقراء فقط .

هذا صحيح لماذا لا تطبقه على فكرك ؟؟!!

قلت لك من قبل انا معي "الكون" كله لأستدل به -كوحدة واحدة- كدليل على كلامي ،،
فلماذا يصعب عليك تصور ذلك ،، هل هو اضخم من المتوقع والمعتاد في نظرك ام ماذا ؟!!

في المقابل لا اجد على كلامك "بـ صحة الاحتمالات الاخرى" اى دليل ،،
ولهذا انا مسلم ومعي الدليل ، وانت ملحد وليس معك دليل ، امامي منذ اول وهلة -وهذه هي اجابة سؤال سابق لك-

انا افهم كلامك جيدا بالفعل ،، لكن المشكلة انك لا تفهم كلامي جيدا ،، فابحث عن السبب عندك .

اى موضوع خارج السياق اخبرتك انه بامكانك طرحه في موضوع مستقل في المنتدى هنا ليأخذ حقه من الاجابة ،،
فلماذا تتصور انه يجب ان اجيبك عليه هنا "بالعافية" !!

عموما وتنزلا معك اعد تحديد سؤالك وسأجيبك عليه بالعربية هنا طالما قد وفرت علي وقت الترجمة -اذا رغبت- ..
كما قلت لك من قبل لأننا نمتلك الدليل على كل صفة من صفات الله عز وجل ،، وبينت لك ذلك بأنها خطوات معرفية ،، وبينت لك انها مبنية على بعضها البعض فلا يمكنك القفز على بعضها دون تحقيق فهم تام لما سبقها من صفات ،،

انت في المقابل لم توفر اسباب صادقة للحصول على هذه المعرفة ،، فلم تقل انك معترف بوجود الله -الا جدليا والجدلية هنا لا تغني عن الحقيقة-،،
لأحدثك عن اى استدلال تالي لذلك ،وبالتالي انت من تمنع نفسك من رؤية بقية الاستدلالات المنطقية الاخرى وليس أنا ..

اما بخصوص ما تقوله انت بهذا الصدد فليس اكثر من بعض المهاترات هنا و هناك لا اكثر ولا يقوم على اى دليل ،،
فضلا عن ان تأتي لتحاجج به مسلمين !!
انت شاطر في الاتهامات ،، لكن لما حد يطالبك بدليل ،، تتوه على موضوعات تانية
انا ايضا انتظر "دليلك" على ما تدعيه بفارغ الصبر !!
وكذلك دليل على الحادك المزعوم ،، لأنه برأيي ليس أكثر من فقاعة فارغة ،، واحب ان اذكرك بأحد محتوياتها : "no answer is better than a wrong answer." وهذا يعني انك لا تملك شيء ،، مجرد كونك بارع في تسويق هذا "اللاشيء" لا يعني ابدا انك على حق ولا حتى انك تستحق الاتباع ،، ولا حتى انك تملك دليل ولا اى شيء كائنا ما يكون بأى صدد نتحدث عنه .

خدوهم بالصوت وجيب اللى فيك فيهم ،، يبدو ان القاعدة هي : قل ما تشاء طالما فقدت الدليل فلا عيب عليك ولا حرج ..

What is the meaning of this approach? Do you believe it is polite what you are doing?

I managed to decode this and that with a translator.
So, if god created the universe, there are still millions of possible scenarios/hypotheses following the creation. One of them is the Islamic one which says that we are created to be tested in a particular way on this planet so then god would decide who deserves what after they die. Also the rules of the testing are given.

But just because you see only that explanation, doesn't make it correct. You have to prove it is really better than others.
I, on the other hand, was willing to consider yours and draw conclusions, why are you unable to do the same thing with the ones I gave you?

I asked you an honest question which perhaps is not related to the topic you imposed here but what keeps you from answering?

You still didn't tell me what makes your definition/description of god and his interference in this world more credible than the ones I introduced?
Since you can't answer (I am still waiting in case you come up with something), it is logical to assume your decision was subjective and has nothing to do with logic. In other words, it is really not a wise decision or at least there is no evidence it is.