:-)

**أحمد فتحي الموحد** · 07-16-2010, 10:35 PM

evolusion is so complicated, so we have some 300 millions or 100 M or 50 M creature that havent change since that age??? why evolution is so selective???

BTW, i know that evolution dont stop at any phase, so from your comment:

Evolution is not a god that is necessarily changing the species. This fish obviously did not need to change. It worked anyway. It was not put to any hard challange by any outer factor. It is not strange that we find most of such species in the sea, where conditions did not change that fast and that hard, like they did on land

or theres some new thzeory on the principe theory that evolution stop on some phase!

and why many of species disapear around the world, cuz the climat and human activities right?

so, why they did not evaluat on something more resistibl to that change?

what you have seen on the links, tigers, insect, bears, seal,..... limur...ect...is that a creature that lives on sea or ocean??

no comment.....

for your task:

By the way, why did God make Quran only in Arab and not in English or Chinese? At the time of Mohammad world was still very big and for example native people in America or Australia (for example) had no chance to read it. Did they end in hell because of this? Not really fair in that case. He should have sent Quran to every continent at least ;-) 0

i leave some one how has more deep knowlege on religion, cuz i have not the necessary knowlege ........... but i have some point here:

god send mohammad with arabic holy book to challenge the unbelievers of Makkah, cuz Muhammad (pbuh) was analphabet, so its strange that an alphabet man like him (pbuh) come with that book that contain the most straight arabic language in the arabic .............peninsula

like i said is just one of many reasons, isugger that you ask how have more knowlege than me....

What question did I not reply, Ahmed? 0

is the last question in my lasts comment..... so we dont have to repeated....

ahmed

**مشرف 3** · 07-16-2010, 11:42 PM

الإخوة الأفاضل: سيقتصر الحوار -منعا لتشتيته- على الزميل شارلي وعلى د حسام الدين حامد وابن السنة

**أحمد فتحي الموحد** · 07-16-2010, 11:50 PM

ican't continue with you , because the directors here sugger that you continue the discussion with someone else - to not divide you -...is not in my hand unfortunely

and this is the message from supervisor 3:

الإخوة الأفاضل: سيقتصر الحوار -منعا لتشتيته- على الزميل شارلي وعلى د حسام الدين حامد وابن السنة

mean: dear brothers, the discussion will be limited between Charlie and Dr. Houssam Addin and Ibnoussunnah

....anyway...this discussion with you was intresting...so hope your enjoing your stay here.

shall we finish the discussion here?

last message from AHMED.....

**Charlie1965** · 07-18-2010, 12:47 AM

Hi Ahmed and everyone else

About the evolution. It is not a proces going on with a special purpose. It is not someone steering it and wanting to make new species and change the species. If a living creature is well adapted to the surrounding it lives in than it will not necessarily change. But just because this fish did not change (or changed just a little so we can not see it clearly in an old fossil) it does not mean it did not change enywhere. This fish could have been spread on many seas around the world and in some parts it probably changed, but this is difficult to prove. If there are very similar species anywhere alse, you would call it a new creation of God. Up to you.
But did you think about this: Why do we find so many endemic species on islands far in the ocean? Why do you think God placed them there? The more distant, than the more endemic species. Like Galapagos in middle of pacific ocean. What do you think? 0
About the question that I did not reply, please repeat it anyway. I have not time to search for it now.
Best regards from Charlie :-) 0

PS, Sorry I am short this time... Don't have much time now. Thank you for your patience.

**Charlie1965** · 07-18-2010, 10:56 AM

Message to the supervisor: I would like to know why the forum is limited just for me Dr Houssam and Inb Alsunnah? What is the reason? 0

**Charlie1965** · 07-18-2010, 11:22 AM

Hi Ibn Alsunnah

You wrote this: 0
Again, Countries in the middle east, where the majority of the population is muslims are governed by secular governments and not as you think in Sweden that we are in the church controlling phase

I really can not know how the political power is divided between the religions and the politicians. I know for example in Iranthere are political elections, but the candidates must first be appreciated by the religious leaders. There is no way a candidate that is not a strict Muslim and loyato the religious leadership will be accepted. I know it differs from country to country, but Iran is not the only example I am sure. On the other side we have countries like Turkey who is very secularized and maybe came longest on that way, in the middle east.
Since you mentioned Sweden, we divided the political power from the church completely.
The church has no political power. Only people who choose to do it pay money each year to the church. This is good I think. If you come here and live in Sweden, why should you pay anything to something you don't believe in`And same for me as an Atheist. Just wanted to clear this out, so there will be no misunderstandings. Politicians here are almost never even mentioning religion when they talk.0
Bets regards from Charlie#

**ابن السنة** · 07-18-2010, 04:12 PM

Dear Charlie,
It is nice to see you again

Charlie, Actually we don't have something called a "religious leader" in islam. Yes Iran has that, but this is not in Islam. I don't know if you are aware of the different between Shiaa and Sunnah or not

I see that you are looking at the relation between religion and the government from the church-state point of view. It is not like that in Islam.

Anyway this is very far away from our discussion

For our discussion to be fruitful we need to based it on some bases
My idea is as follows ( and this is the idea of telling people about Islam)
1- Prove that God exist if so then
2- Prove that Mohamed (PBUH) is his messenger if son then
3- Prove that the Quran was transmitted to us with no corruption

This is the logical way, Any other way will be a waste of time. right?
I am still not sure if you understood my arguments about Creation and ts need for a Creator.
I see here that we are going astray from our path. State-Church separation, Cutting hands, Capital punishments are all secondary points. For you you don't feel they are humane and for me they are just and humane. My reason is based on the 3 points above. And yours is based on you denial of them. So we can never agree on them

Best Regards
Ibn Alsunnah

**حسام الدين حامد** · 07-19-2010, 06:55 PM

Saying that proving that God exists requires an evidence that 100% or most of the people accept, that is nonsense! Here you count on a logical fallacy "appeal to majority" to prove a fact! A fact is a fact regardless who believes in it! You sound very logic when you say that darwinism can be right even if Darwin said he was wrong, but you sound anything but logic when you count on the number of those who follow an evidence to accept it. Again and again, you can't be 100% sure of something that you just bet I can't prove and you don't even know what I would say!

I will concentrate on the meaning of evidence

Your kid didn't deny your ability of bringing the book to show him on a video tape or in reality that you can bring the book and put it on the desk! The issue is that he didn't see you on Sunday putting the book and thus he postulated two assumptions that explains the "origin of the book"! It is meaningless to put the book on Monday! He simply replies that he saw you on Monday and thus he believes it, then he rejects your story of Sunday event as he didn't see you! Your story is not liable to verification or falsification! He is trying to be scientific and till now you can't answer him!

Ok … it's likely that you put the book! But it is of the same likelihood that another person came in and put it! It is likely that Napoleon won and it is of the same likelihood that he didn't win! Why do you give preference to certain possibility on another

Independent creation of species by God is possible. Yes, I agree that it's impossible that a god created himself! We don't believe in a "created god" Mr. Charlie! I believe in God who created all the beings and He isn't created, God can create species independently .. is that possible?! Ok let's postpone this question for a while till we agree on the nature of evidence that you will use to persuade the little kid

That example that we discuss is my clue to show you the importance of (traditionary evidence) in your everyday life! How do you know that Mohammed Peace be upon him existed?! How do you know that Napoleon won!? How do you know that there is a country named India that you never went to!? Why do you ask your kid to believe you?! What are the standards you tell him in believing someone?! You tell him that you are the one who put the book and another one says "no! it's me who put the book", what standards you teach him to use in such situations?! Have you ever thought of these ideas and the standards you use in your everyday life

I tell you that God created species independently as He told us. But you believe only in what is falsifiable, experimental and observational. You didn't see the event and the revelation is not observational nor experimental. You are not denying His ability ,assuming his presence, but you want a scientific evidence.

To sum up in one question hoping that you got the idea:
The kid tells you he believes only in what is falsifiable, experimental and observational. He didn't see you putting the book and saying you did is not observational nor experimental. He is not denying your ability to put the book but he wants a scientific evidence.

I think it is time to teach the kid that not all evidences are experimental and we should believe honest men when they tell us about what they did or saw. Otherwise we won't be able to have a sane life in that world! What do you think Mr. Charlie

Hosam

**مشرف 3** · 07-19-2010, 09:43 PM

Wow, so many messages today :-D Thanks a lot guys. Hope I have time to answer them all, one by one and excuse me if I forget something . Please remind me if I forget to answer at something important... I try my best. Charlie

have now 4-5 people writing quite long or sometimes very long messages. It is tiering, but also very interesting. I try my best. It takes a lot of my time, but I enjoy it. I have full respect that you can not be here all the time and I hope you all understand me if I am sometimes slow to reply, or some day do not reply at all.

our policy in the forum is to make it easy for members and readers to follow the discussion, and as you said a conversation with 4 or 5 persons is somewhat tiring and it distracts attention instead of concentrating on certain points

**Charlie1965** · 07-20-2010, 12:25 AM

HI Ibn Alsunnah

I did not start the discussion about the connection between politics and the religion. It was just a reply of what you said about the situation in Sweden which was wrong. I agree however this is a different topic and we don't have to talk about it here and now. 0
I know there are differences about Sunni and Shia but I am not very good on differences. I know one of them does not allowto make pictures of gods , profets or any wholy
person, but i forgot which side it is. 0

Cutting hands and killing is not a secondary point. It is a sign of human barbarian past that should not exist in a good world. For me cutting hand and killing people, no matter what is the reason is maybe not an evidence, but a good sign the religion origins from humans. If there was a god who wanted to try humans, than he would not need other humans "help" to judge or to cut peaces of his own creations. 0
By the way, did you think of this: 0
If you want to try if a person is honest (for example you want to let him work for you in your house, but want to test him first) . How would you check him? I would maybe leave some money on a place that looks like I don't know about that money and see if he will steal it or tell me that he found the money. That would be quite a good way. But your god is testing humans by let them know they will go to heaven if they live in a way he wants them to live. What kind of test is that? It is like I would tell a person in the example above that I am checking him!? That is not a try. You make the deal with god. That is not a test...... Think of that... 0

Best regards from Charlie

**Charlie1965** · 07-20-2010, 12:29 AM

I appreciate the supervisors help to make it easier for me to handle the debate, but why can I not choose who I want to talk to? Maybe I want to talk further with brother Ahmed? Is someone being scared I know more than him about the topic and I might show that I am right? I don't think that is very fair. Makes me doubt in intentions about this site...#0
Charlie

**أحمد فتحي الموحد** · 07-20-2010, 12:53 AM

so being a responsable of his actions and being respectious mean for you scared?

no doubt... western community hase the reverse look on all the matters of all what's happening in the world, for ex.: resistence = terrorisme for west. community, respect the humanity dignity is complexity and knob for you, killing some invaders soldier is a crime and killing millions of chidren, woman, is just a MISTAKE....

i don't bleem you

ahmed

**Charlie1965** · 07-20-2010, 12:57 AM

Hi Hossam, 0

Yes a fact is a fact. A fact is that the species on earth did not just appear, but did evaluate through millions and even billions of years. For you it is nonsense we need 100% evidence about god. That is why you come to such wrong conclusion about him. I never says that majority opinion means that is correct. In that case I would not stand in the opposition to religions, because most of the humans believe in some kind of god. I just expect to see a single evidence if I should believe in something that is unbelievable. 0

About the book and my son and Napoleon. Yes, it is true I never saw Napoleon and I maybe it is whole a tale....just a story. But it is very likely. I am maybe fooled there, but my life experiences tells me that it is very possible and I don't doubt it. If there is any error about Napoleon, that is for the historicist to solve. Even if he did not exist it would not change my world very much. That is why I don't look for 100% evidence. If we talk about god I have no experiences at all in my life that would even make it likely that he exists. It is for me a complete tale, just like Santa. If someone wants to show me that Santa exists than I require evidences. I think you understand the differences between those two cases, from my point of view, no matter how the world looks in your mind. Maybe you saw god, or saw him do some things. I haven't. Same with the book and my son. It is very likely that I put the book there. At least for my son it is much more likely than that god put it there. If he saw me on video that put it there... ok... he would be surprised he did not see me do that in real, but if a god on put it there THAT I WOULD CALL A SURPRISE... not just for him, but for me and every person on earth.., even you and other people who believe in god. You never saw god do it, but you saw other people do it. Maybe you would even ask yourself "Is this real?" 0
##As long as the idea of god is very very unbelievable I will deny his existence. Yes I do it. That is common human logic. Anything else is a wish to believe, not common sense that you talk about. 0

Bets regards from Charlie

**Charlie1965** · 07-20-2010, 01:04 AM

Hi Ahmed, 0

Welcome back. I will never defend any killing of humans at all. No culture, my own or any other will get my support for any kind of war, or killings. I hope you agree with me that would make a better world.

Best regards from Charlie

**ابن السنة** · 07-20-2010, 01:13 AM

Cutting hands and killing is not a secondary point. It is a sign of human barbarian past that should not exist in a good world

.

Please Charlie, Don't talk like that about my religion

Words like "good" , "bad", ..etc dependon your paradigm. My paradigm is very different from yours so we will never agree on these concepts

It is better to talk about the main ideas, If you falsify the bases of my paradigm then everything else will fall.
You don't like cutting hands then you assume it is a sign that islam is a human creation
This doesn't depend on the common ground between us. our common ground is logic.
Capital punishment, cutting hands ,...etc cannot be driven from basic logic
REMEMBER
basic logic doesn't change with time
Yes we can go and evaluate more experiments and understand more about our universe but still we judge logic
Less than 40 years ago, punishment by killing was expected world wide. Then now it is not expected in some places
right
?
What changed?
just the taste of people
This is not logic
So please lets stick to our discussion

Do you find any problem in my arguments about the existence of God
?
If so please discuss it with me
and please I am not telling you to accept Islam
I am not arguing even about islam right now

Ibn Alsunnah

:-)

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