استشارة في الرد على منكر للسنة

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Since you started making new misguiding claims , I'll have to respond again in this new topic .
First of all , you're not the one to tell us so . It is known before you or your 10th grandfather were born that whatever contradicts Quran in a way that cannot be explained is immediately discarded .


The claims were not misguided. Are you seriously comparing the authenticity of hadiths to the Quran?

Secondly, I love your next point, we should discard hadiths that contradict the Quran. Then we got a LOOONG way to go in discarding Hadiths. We can start with the Apostasy ones, the music ones and 'grow your beard ones' and of course the ones that go against evolution .


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And I would say that you don't really follow logic , you follow desire . You see something you don't like in Hadith and just decide to deem it wrong and corrupted while the problem actually lies in you . Anything you try to bring will prove this . So again , get over yourself . This arrogance you hold is deadly .


If I follow what I desire, I wouldn't have ever became Muslim. Trust me on that point.

I follow what is reasonable. Chinese whispers are not reasonable to follow.

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Further Quran 19:101 has said Muhammad doesn't know who the hypocrites were at his time. Nowhere does the Quran say that Muhammad was successful at finding all hypocrites. And if by chance, he was, when the prophet died--how exactly did he fight off the new hypocrites that carry on the hadiths?? Ironically at least two Sahih Hadith in the Muslim's compilation confirm this by admitting to 12 hypocrites masquerading as companions and who's identities were never revealed.

You can never prove what's underlined . The sign says that the prophet didn't know them when the sign was revealed . And we have verses ordering the prophet to fight the hypocrites . So rationally , if he's going to fight them , he necessarily knows them . The story of Huthaifa the son of Yaman confirms this as the prophet told him about the their names and so he wouldn't pray on them the same way the prophet wouldn't . And Quran who's innocent of you says :

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful.


Firstly, You have failed to show that Muhammad has dealt with all of the hypocrites at his time. Secondly, and even more importantly, you have failed to show that Muhammad has dealt with all the new hypocrites that came after he died.

What argument do you really hold? Just more excuses.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.


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Allah himself said he's pleased with the believers and calls them truthful . Enough said . And in the chapter of the people of Umran


Hypocrites =/= believers.


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It says that Allah wouldn't leave people in their state until the evil is known and good is known .

So , considering the last points , the prophet did know the hypocrites because :
1 - Nothing says he never knew them until he passed away .
2 - There are signs saying Allah is pleased of the believers whom you hate so much .
3 - There's a verse saying that Allah will reveal the evil and good and tell his prophet .
4 - There are signs telling the prophet peace upon him to fight the hypocrites and to never obey them meaning that he must have known them .
Therefore , saying that the companions are hypocrites = A failing attempt to make us drop half our religion .


1.) Nothing says the prophet dealt with All hypocrites--he did do an effort of course
2.) Again, hypocrites are not classified as believers. People who fake being believers are hypocrites.
3.) Now, you bring up a good point here! Indeed Allah does distinguish the good from the bad and he definitely has aided Muhammad and us, but again, I ask where does it say that all the hypocrites past, present and future have been dealt with. Especially the ones who write hadith?Further, this verse is probably better understood by saying that Allah will actively continue revealing the hypocrites to us. This is a continuous process! This shows that not all hypocrites are being dealt with at once, rather Allah has done so once in the battle of Uhud and he will continue to do so today. It is a continuous process. So all the hypocrites have not really been dealt with.
4.)Indeed there are some companions who were truthful and probably have said good things, but it is obvious by reason and the Quran that there are hypocrites among them.

Ironically your own sources, support my point

Ironically Bukhari's own report clearly points to this fact especially after his, Prophet's Pbuh demise:

Narrated Anas: The Prophet said, "Some of my companions will come to me at my Lake Fount, and after I recognize them, they will then be taken away from me, whereupon I will say, 'My companions!' Then it will be said, 'You do not know what they innovated (new things) in the religion after you."
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 76, Hadith 584

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Did the disc brake or what ? "Unwilling , unwilling , unwilling , unwilling" . You think that just by saying this , you make a strong argument . Sure , I also describe you with what's actually in you but I do bring things to prove it . As for the site , it says "made good" . NOWHERE does it say "Made it better" as you lied about Quran and made a completely new verse . And when I mentioned the sandwich example which explains how you don't just misunderstand but insist on misunderstanding , you shoved it off as if it's nothing . So , Arabic is against you , English is against you , and mathematical logic is against you . What do you got ?


Unwilling really is the best word for this type of dishonesty.

Again, I have explained why it says "made better". IF you make good everything that you created, what did you do? You made it better--that is a simple line of reasoning. Further, you disregarded the verses after it that further demonstrate that creation was made..better.

Further I have given you 2 more verses that show this point:

Quran 40:64 [Allah] formed you THEN (fa) made good your forms
Quran 64:3 formed you then (fa) made good your forms

In arabic (waaw) translates as "and". Thumma and Fa both respectively translate as Then. Fa also carries a meaning of 'thus'. So lets think about it. You were designed..Time lapse..then your design was made good.

Was made good. Meaning made better than the initial. Its not rocket science. But it is "unwilling''.

In Quran 32:7 if Allah wanted to say that creation is good, why did he word it in that way implying that creation was MADE good through a process??

The sandwhich example was nothing more than an appeal to ridicule, I had no idea that you actually meant something like this. I cannot believe I have to even address it.

Firstly, if I say that I made the sandwhich then I made it good (as the Quran says about creation), That means I improved upon the sandwich.

The reason why your sandwhich Analogy fails is because you use the word "good" as a descriptive adjective! In the Quran it is a VERB. . You can verify it by going to the word for word translation.

You said "I made this sandwich and I made this sandwich Good". The word good you used here is an adjective. Rather the better sentence is that " I made better this sandwich".

The verb Better is defined as "to make good or to improve". The Arabic verb Ahsana means the verb "to make good", it is not an adjective.

The problem with using the word 'good' is the English language. Good isn't and cannot be a verb. A word that means to make good that is a verb is 'better'.

In fact, Sahih international translated 32:7 as Who perfected everything which He created and began the creation of man from clay.

Perfected: Make something BETTER.

Now, you are suggesting that the Quran says in 32:7 that creation is Good. If that was the case, why didn't the Quran simply say "Who creates everything Good" or "Everything is created Good" instead of saying "I have made good/better everything which I created" or "I have perfected everything which I created".



Personally, I feel like this verse is clear, in fact you should read the verses after, they describe HOW Allah has made humanity better! First Allah began the creation, then he made sexual reproduction, then he further proportioned us (made us better from the beginning state of creation mentioned in 32:7).

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Keep this testimony of yours to yourself . I asked many religion and language teachers at my school and they all said that it means to make something good . When I asked them "Can it possibly mean to make creatures incomplete and then make them better ?" they denied giving me strange glares as if I just said a bad joke .


So it looks like they agree that it means to make something good/better as a verb. But they, like you, are raised denying evolution in their culture so they deny.

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You need to drop these dangerous ideologies you hold . OR make a new sect for yourself where there's no proof of God and we still blindly believe in him , where this God has no characteristics , where the prophet of God failed to set the nation on the right path and it was lost in corruption until some genius showed up and discovered what it didn't , where there is no way for us to know a single thing about history since we dropped the only way to know it , a sect where we can't prove that there was ever a man called Muhammad .


I think quite the opposite, you need to make a new sect or redefine whatever sect you are in as "non-Quranic".

There is NO proof of God. I said before and I will say it again. The Quran does not give proof, it gives ayats!

Please read this: I'm still working on it, it has a lot more to God



There are things the prophet himself didn't know about the Quran. For example, its numerical consistency (esp. with the number 19) was never once mentioned by him anywhere. The Quran has things for people of the future too and not applicable to Muhammad.

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The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.

They are only impossible to verify to you . This twisted way you follow also says to deny the entire history because we can't make verify anything at all . Anyone can claim that everything written in history was corrupted and made out of conspiracies . And because you follow your selfish desire , you only discard Sunnah which seems to oppose what you prefer .


Anyone can also claim that was written up in history is true and follow their selfish desire..

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And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.

Funny , I was reading a book talking about this mentality . What's more funny is that the writer was answering Richard Dawkinz . I guess it's true , similar birds are indeed attracted to each other .
In the book , he mentions how Dawkinz denies a certain incident witnessed by millions of people who saw the sun falling on Earth . He can't deny it . The ones who saw it passed it to the ones after them , and the ones after them passed it to the ones after them in a way that it can't be forged or conspired . Of course , what the people saw wasn't the sun literally falling on Earth , still , you can never deny that they saw the incident .
That's how it was with Sunnah , the prophet peace upon him passed his teachings to the companions whom Quran tells us were truthful and honest . If you want to ignore Quran here because it doesn't suit you , it's your own business . After that , the companions passed them on to the followers . Moreover , even during the time of the prophet himself Hadith was recorded by his order and then after he passed away . What scholars did was using the logical ways Quran mentioned to determine the right from wrong . They wouldn't accept even the slightest possibility that a person would lie even to an animal . Such a thing will make them discard him immediately . And you try to compare this study to a school game - O one who has no shame - and say that there is NO WAY these people remembered every word of what they were told . The simple fact that there are 5 years old during these days memorizing Quran proves you wrong . This is in our days , so what do we say about the prime of the Islamic nation when it wasn't difficult for anyone to remember a poem of 200 parts ? So when you try to make it look like some hypocrites showed up suddenly hundreds of years ago and decided to forge Hadith it's actually out of ignorance of what really happened or stubbornness .
Again , bluffing does nothing .


Its funny how far you went to avoid my point, rather than refuting them, you just called me a conspiracy theorist and said my mindset was awful.

Further, I deny things that are illogical. The sun falling on earth would not make the Earth survive, so I deny it. Simple as that.

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No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them

Yes you are insulting them and yes it's vulgar . Allah tells us that he's pleased of them and the prophet peace upon him favors a group of them for their faith and morals and willingness and you say that maybe they were "Kuffar" !? What would you feel if I say so about you ? I can easily do so and you can't blame me .


If you think what I said is vulgar, then you must think what the Quran said was vulgar too? Because I didn't say anything, the Quran did.

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How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?

First of all , just because you can't , it doesn't mean others can't . Talking about emotions ? Well , here you are rejecting this simply because you think it's not possible . Maybe you'd deny someone memorizing the entire Quran as well because you think it's impossible . Let me tell you this : It doesn't go the way you like or dislike .
Secondly , Bukhari did make a number of mistakes and so did other scholars . But to claim that they ALL didn't notice forged hadith or sayings , you're then trying to make fun of our intellect and of an entire nation going from the first day of revelation until now after over 1435 years . The entire nation cannot agree on something false .


Its not impossible to memorize the Quran. It is impossible for a human to not make mistakes.

They ALL probably didn't notice forged hadith sayings or mistakes in them because they came from companions they thought were good, but they were really hypocrites.

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Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?

The noble Quran is to be kept the same alphabet by alphabet . Allah says so . Sunnah on the other hand is the second source of teachings as it is also a revelation . When it comes to Sunnah , it is the meaning which is kept the same . And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that except for you . a few words with the same exact meaning can be different , a companion may have heard a part from the prophet but not the rest because he left or any other reason , a companion may have seen a part of an incident and the other saw another part and the third as well , nothing's wrong with that at all . If so , bye bye history . Forget history , we won't be able to claim that anything said about someone is true because the word "and" is missing from the story telling of a person and exists in the story of the other , or maybe the other one corrupted what the first has said and added "and" .


I think you would make a fine Christian. Putting excuses.

The bible was 'inspired' by God. The hadiths were 'inspired' by God. Although the bible has a lot of corruptions, its basic meanings are intact. Although the hadiths have had many corruptions its meanings are intact.

A companion may have also made a big mistake. Have you ever played the telephone game when you were younger? How often is the message at the end the same as the first?

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Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?

Hold it , come again ? Either I misunderstood or you just made one big fat lie .


Not a lie at all.

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Well , my little cousin used to look at me and say "Why do you tell me to eat with my right hand and you're eating with the left ?" and I answer "It IS my right hand ! It's only your left . If you come here and turn around it will become your right" and he does and then opens his mouth in amazement saying that I can never explain to him how this mysterious phenomenon happens . Guess what happened one year later . On the other hand , I have questions disproving your way which you haven't answered in two weeks or so . Compare this to me answering you right away . I'll copy them - again - at the end of this reply .


Post those questions I haven't answered again, I'm pretty sure I have addressed all of them.

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And I proved to you time and time again that Quran has nothing to do with this ideology . So stop with bluffing , it's really getting ridiculous . We were one sign out of many which you misquote and alter and you still can't see how you brought what contradicts your argument . If this one single point was so fruitless that I keep repeating and you keep ignoring then a question rises about your honesty and your ability to understand outside what you're forced to believe because "Scientists" said it's right .


Here we go again. I have not misquoted, you did, I have shown earlier.

Secondly, irregardless of what you believe about evolution, we are debating the Quranic support. Evolution science itself does not matter, does the Quran support it or not.

Further, scientists didn't only say its right, they actually provided tangible evidence.

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Quran , Sunnah , and science , all of them step on this hypotheses - Yes , I dared and called it so - and prove it wrong all the time . You fail to show a single sign supporting it , you fail to disprove Hadith which discredits it , and the entire gang of evidence-faking pseudoscientists fail to prove evolution and so they judge that whatever happens is because of evolution .


Wow, extreme level of dishonesty here. Either that or just plain ignorance.

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I swear with the almighty Allah the lord of the great throne and heavens and Earth and what's between them that's you are the one being either dishonest or lying or biased . I said it and I'll say it again : Bluffing does nothing . All these emotional attacks you make on me backed up by nothing are also nothing . I am being honest . The one who's not honest is the one who fears dealing with what contradicts what he wants to believe . Trying to make it look like I blindly follow scholars and say evolution is wrong because they say so is cheap . I believe it's wrong because I saw and keep seeing evidence it's wrong .


Good. I do not do emotional attacks that much, rather I reply to yours with like nature. .

Forget about the science of evolution for a temporary time. Investigate the Quranic support.

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Yes I answered your false explanations both logically and literally . I showed you that "Make good" doesn't in any world mean "Make something better after it was incomplete" . You are the one trying to make his way through this by spamming "You're dishonest , the sign is clear , I give a word for word translation" . And since it's become so pointless to keep going like this , further repentance might make me stop in this subject and just focus on defending Sunnah from your allegations .


And you have not answered them logically or literally!

NO what you did was change the part of speech of Good!

If I make something that I made good. What did I do? Do I even have to repeat it?

Here is a pen. I created it. Then I made it good. What did I do to the pen?

at this point, I hope you aren't being dishonest. I will hope, just ignorant or ignorantly dishonest. A word for word translation is crucial. I didn't like how you just rejected it.

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So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.

We don't need to change anything . It is you who needs to change his false ideology and abandon false interpreting of the noble Quran .


And that is what we will debate, If the Quran supports evolution--you have no choice but to discard those hadiths that reject evolution. I will show you. You need to present Quranic verses against evolution and I will continue with its support.

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Let us begin

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I have shown you already what Quran 32:7 has told us. Creation was perfected, improved upon, made better, made good. It is a form IV verb.

This is also demonstrated in 2 verses I have mentioned earlier

Ex. Quran 40:64 formed you then (fa) made good/better your forms. Further, the word fa here can be used denoting an brief period of time. So it seems as if this verse is telling us that quickly after the initial form of human creation it was made better. This seems to really correspond to our understanding of evolution becuase immediately once the first cell formed it goes through the mechanisms of evolution and thus the ones that survive or get more complex are made better. Secondly, fa can also be used as "thus" linking the two entities. So Allah formed you thus made your form better! This means that Allah has formed you initially in a creation that allows your form to become better/made good. This also seems to be a support for evolution as if we were formed through this process, it would allow us to improve in our creation. Thirdly many translate the word "fa" as And. Again, there is a thing with using 'And' as it separates formation from making formation better. It seems like it provides a time lapse. Why didn't the Quran just somehow tell you that your form is Good rather than implying that your form was made good after it was formed? If you would like to argue that the Quran could use different words to say the same thing, I would immediately say that saying it the way it did in 40:64 is very different from saying "creation is good", then I would say that this is repeated in another verse too (as demonstrated earlier)--so why did the Quran word the same thing the same exact way in two separate verses?! Obviously it wants to tell you that mankind's creation was made through a process.

You swore no dishonesty. I want to see your answer here.

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Further, I just have a question to you. Allah many times in the Quran has told us many types of creation and how everything was made through a process (Quran 32:7-9 is one example we used) on how the creation of the universe took 6 periods involving stages on how Allah spread out the creation of the universe and how Allah spread out the Earth and how Allah has given us stages in our embryological development. Why would Allah all of suddenly stop forming things by stages and decide to make humans instantly and without stages? Everything that was created was by stages, except humans? What exactly is your answer to that?

Even Jesus's creation--A miraculous birth similar to Adam (Quran 3:59)--involved stages.

How about the fact that the Quran has made it plainly clear that humans were created in stages: (Quran 71:14) God created you in stages and how the Quran highlights those stages as being embryology and evolutionary (Quran 32:7-9, 35:11 etc.)
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Okay, so let us not resort to anything else. Not Hadiths, not even the scientific evidence for evolution. The Question is, does the Quran support the basic idea of gradual creation of humans. This answer does not depend upon hadiths nor modern science. It is purely Quranic.

So to make it even, empty your bais for Hadiths rejecting evolution and I will empty my bais for the scientific support of evolution. This should level everything out.
Posted by: Black Muslim
« on: November 04, 2013, 0844 am »

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You can accuse me of running away as much as you like . We all saw how you didn't respond to the points I mentioned .

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I and ALL Muslims agree that the Quran is divine and the Hadith is manmade. Therefore, if the Quran conflicts a hadith, you support the Quran irregardless of your emotions. You don't like this, I know....I know. But in the battle between emotion and reasoned logic. Pick logic!

Since you started making new misguiding claims , I'll have to respond again in this new topic .
First of all , you're not the one to tell us so . It is known before you or your 10th grandfather were born that whatever contradicts Quran in a way that cannot be explained is immediately discarded .
And I would say that you don't really follow logic , you follow desire . You see something you don't like in Hadith and just decide to deem it wrong and corrupted while the problem actually lies in you . Anything you try to bring will prove this . So again , get over yourself . This arrogance you hold is deadly .

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Further Quran 19:101 has said Muhammad doesn't know who the hypocrites were at his time. Nowhere does the Quran say that Muhammad was successful at finding all hypocrites. And if by chance, he was, when the prophet died--how exactly did he fight off the new hypocrites that carry on the hadiths?? Ironically at least two Sahih Hadith in the Muslim's compilation confirm this by admitting to 12 hypocrites masquerading as companions and who's identities were never revealed.

You can never prove what's underlined . The sign says that the prophet didn't know them when the sign was revealed . And we have verses ordering the prophet to fight the hypocrites . So rationally , if he's going to fight them , he necessarily knows them . The story of Huthaifa the son of Yaman confirms this as the prophet told him about the their names and so he wouldn't pray on them the same way the prophet wouldn't . And Quran who's innocent of you says :

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Certainly was Allah pleased with the believers when they pledged allegiance to you, [O Muhammad], under the tree, and He knew what was in their hearts, so He sent down tranquillity upon them and rewarded them with an imminent conquest

The believers are only the ones who have believed in Allah and His Messenger and then doubt not but strive with their properties and their lives in the cause of Allah . It is those who are the truthful.

For the poor emigrants who were expelled from their homes and their properties, seeking bounty from Allah and [His] approval and supporting Allah and His Messenger, [there is also a share]. Those are the truthful.


Allah himself said he's pleased with the believers and calls them truthful . Enough said . And in the chapter of the people of Umran

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Allah would not leave the believers in that [state] you are in [presently] until He separates the evil from the good. Nor would Allah reveal to you the unseen. But [instead], Allah chooses of His messengers whom He wills, so believe in Allah and His messengers. And if you believe and fear Him, then for you is a great reward.


It says that Allah wouldn't leave people in their state until the evil is known and good is known .

So , considering the last points , the prophet did know the hypocrites because :
1 - Nothing says he never knew them until he passed away .
2 - There are signs saying Allah is pleased of the believers whom you hate so much .
3 - There's a verse saying that Allah will reveal the evil and good and tell his prophet .
4 - There are signs telling the prophet peace upon him to fight the hypocrites and to never obey them meaning that he must have known them .
Therefore , saying that the companions are hypocrites = A failing attempt to make us drop half our religion .

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Further, I have shown you how the site I bring doesn't work against me and works in my favor. I also broke down everything for you in little pieces, but evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. Further, you have not at all showed me how the word-for-word translation of the Quran goes against me, you just claim you have. I have responded to your points clearly.

Did the disc brake or what ? "Unwilling , unwilling , unwilling , unwilling" . You think that just by saying this , you make a strong argument . Sure , I also describe you with what's actually in you but I do bring things to prove it . As for the site , it says "made good" . NOWHERE does it say "Made it better" as you lied about Quran and made a completely new verse . And when I mentioned the sandwich example which explains how you don't just misunderstand but insist on misunderstanding , you shoved it off as if it's nothing . So , Arabic is against you , English is against you , and mathematical logic is against you . What do you got ?

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I provide evidence, you reject the evidence. Its been like that the entire way. And the sad part is, you reject the evidence through fallacies and rhetoric.

Bluffing means nothing .

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Yes, you do know Arabic and you keep saying that I fail to understand the Quran without providing evidence or a reason. IN fact, I provided you with a source and a breaking everything down. Yet, you still deny.

So , dishonesty and lack of shame as well , huh ? It seems even if I put the argument right under your nose , you would still claim I provided nothing .

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Further, I have spoken to many Arabic speakers on the word "ahsana" they ALL said it means to make better.

Keep this testimony of yours to yourself . I asked many religion and language teachers at my school and they all said that it means to make something good . When I asked them "Can it possibly mean to make creatures incomplete and then make them better ?" they denied giving me strange glares as if I just said a bad joke .

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What more do I need to do?

You need to drop these dangerous ideologies you hold . OR make a new sect for yourself where there's no proof of God and we still blindly believe in him , where this God has no characteristics , where the prophet of God failed to set the nation on the right path and it was lost in corruption until some genius showed up and discovered what it didn't , where there is no way for us to know a single thing about history since we dropped the only way to know it , a sect where we can't prove that there was ever a man called Muhammad .

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The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.

They are only impossible to verify to you . This twisted way you follow also says to deny the entire history because we can't make verify anything at all . Anyone can claim that everything written in history was corrupted and made out of conspiracies . And because you follow your selfish desire , you only discard Sunnah which seems to oppose what you prefer .

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And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.

Funny , I was reading a book talking about this mentality . What's more funny is that the writer was answering Richard Dawkinz . I guess it's true , similar birds are indeed attracted to each other .
In the book , he mentions how Dawkinz denies a certain incident witnessed by millions of people who saw the sun falling on Earth . He can't deny it . The ones who saw it passed it to the ones after them , and the ones after them passed it to the ones after them in a way that it can't be forged or conspired . Of course , what the people saw wasn't the sun literally falling on Earth , still , you can never deny that they saw the incident .
That's how it was with Sunnah , the prophet peace upon him passed his teachings to the companions whom Quran tells us were truthful and honest . If you want to ignore Quran here because it doesn't suit you , it's your own business . After that , the companions passed them on to the followers . Moreover , even during the time of the prophet himself Hadith was recorded by his order and then after he passed away . What scholars did was using the logical ways Quran mentioned to determine the right from wrong . They wouldn't accept even the slightest possibility that a person would lie even to an animal . Such a thing will make them discard him immediately . And you try to compare this study to a school game - O one who has no shame - and say that there is NO WAY these people remembered every word of what they were told . The simple fact that there are 5 years old during these days memorizing Quran proves you wrong . This is in our days , so what do we say about the prime of the Islamic nation when it wasn't difficult for anyone to remember a poem of 200 parts ? So when you try to make it look like some hypocrites showed up suddenly hundreds of years ago and decided to forge Hadith it's actually out of ignorance of what really happened or stubbornness .
Again , bluffing does nothing .

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How did the compilers of these reports for instance know which companions were hypocrites and which were not? Quran 9:101 is clear on the issue, not even the Prophet Pbuh knew.

Already answered .

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No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them

Yes you are insulting them and yes it's vulgar . Allah tells us that he's pleased of them and the prophet peace upon him favors a group of them for their faith and morals and willingness and you say that maybe they were "Kuffar" !? What would you feel if I say so about you ? I can easily do so and you can't blame me .

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How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?

First of all , just because you can't , it doesn't mean others can't . Talking about emotions ? Well , here you are rejecting this simply because you think it's not possible . Maybe you'd deny someone memorizing the entire Quran as well because you think it's impossible . Let me tell you this : It doesn't go the way you like or dislike .
Secondly , Bukhari did make a number of mistakes and so did other scholars . But to claim that they ALL didn't notice forged hadith or sayings , you're then trying to make fun of our intellect and of an entire nation going from the first day of revelation until now after over 1435 years . The entire nation cannot agree on something false .

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Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?

The noble Quran is to be kept the same alphabet by alphabet . Allah says so . Sunnah on the other hand is the second source of teachings as it is also a revelation . When it comes to Sunnah , it is the meaning which is kept the same . And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that except for you . a few words with the same exact meaning can be different , a companion may have heard a part from the prophet but not the rest because he left or any other reason , a companion may have seen a part of an incident and the other saw another part and the third as well , nothing's wrong with that at all . If so , bye bye history . Forget history , we won't be able to claim that anything said about someone is true because the word "and" is missing from the story telling of a person and exists in the story of the other , or maybe the other one corrupted what the first has said and added "and" .

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Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?

Hold it , come again ? Either I misunderstood or you just made one big fat lie .

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And a dozen other impossible to answer questions.

Well , my little cousin used to look at me and say "Why do you tell me to eat with my right hand and you're eating with the left ?" and I answer "It IS my right hand ! It's only your left . If you come here and turn around it will become your right" and he does and then opens his mouth in amazement saying that I can never explain to him how this mysterious phenomenon happens . Guess what happened one year later . On the other hand , I have questions disproving your way which you haven't answered in two weeks or so . Compare this to me answering you right away . I'll copy them - again - at the end of this reply .

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The question here is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?

And through all the verses I provided, the answer is YES. Without a doubt.

And I proved to you time and time again that Quran has nothing to do with this ideology . So stop with bluffing , it's really getting ridiculous . We were one sign out of many which you misquote and alter and you still can't see how you brought what contradicts your argument . If this one single point was so fruitless that I keep repeating and you keep ignoring then a question rises about your honesty and your ability to understand outside what you're forced to believe because "Scientists" said it's right .

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Leave out ALL of the hadiths for now, leave out ALL of the rhetoric and fallacies. And just for a limited time, leave out your scientific reasons to reject evolution. Just present verses. If you cannot and every-time

Quran , Sunnah , and science , all of them step on this hypotheses - Yes , I dared and called it so - and prove it wrong all the time . You fail to show a single sign supporting it , you fail to disprove Hadith which discredits it , and the entire gang of evidence-faking pseudoscientists fail to prove evolution and so they judge that whatever happens is because of evolution .

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I expect honesty! Nay, I BEG for your honesty! Then we can decide whether the Quran does or doesn't support evolution, irregardless of hadith or whether you think evolution is true. That is how we can remain honest. I swear to Allah that I have been and will continue to remain honest. I need you to do the same, swear here under oath. Allah does not like liars. We both will be honest completely. Further, you need to drop all of the bias and just be unbiased and neutral to everything.

I swear with the almighty Allah the lord of the great throne and heavens and Earth and what's between them that's you are the one being either dishonest or lying or biased . I said it and I'll say it again : Bluffing does nothing . All these emotional attacks you make on me backed up by nothing are also nothing . I am being honest . The one who's not honest is the one who fears dealing with what contradicts what he wants to believe . Trying to make it look like I blindly follow scholars and say evolution is wrong because they say so is cheap . I believe it's wrong because I saw and keep seeing evidence it's wrong .

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Now, you haven't refuted those verses logically at all. Rather, you just claim that I am ignorant in the Arabic language despite giving you clear word for word translations to an Arabic speaker like yourself.

Yes I answered your false explanations both logically and literally . I showed you that "Make good" doesn't in any world mean "Make something better after it was incomplete" . You are the one trying to make his way through this by spamming "You're dishonest , the sign is clear , I give a word for word translation" . And since it's become so pointless to keep going like this , further repentance might make me stop in this subject and just focus on defending Sunnah from your allegations .

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So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.

We don't need to change anything . It is you who needs to change his false ideology and abandon false interpreting of the noble Quran .

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1 -You claim that Quran says it is the only source . Then why does Quran itself tells us to ask others ?

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And We sent not (as Our messengers) before thee other than men whom We inspired - Ask the followers of the Remembrance if ye know not! -


2 - The ones who wrote Hadith did follow the teachings of Quran and used its way .

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A - Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."
B - O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.
C - And do not be [too] weary to write it, whether it is small or large, for its [specified] term. That is more just in the sight of Allah and stronger as evidence and more likely to prevent doubt between you,
D - O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin.


In the first one , Quran gives instructions to ask for evidence in anything and not accept whatever told . In the second one , Quran tells us to be investigate what we are told . In the third one , Quran tells us to be patient in investigating evidence . In the fourth one , Quran tells us to not accuse with no proof .
Now , these rules are done correctly by the scholars of Hadith while you who deny Sunnah do the opposite . You don't follow the third one which tells us to be patient in finding evidence . When one writes Hadith , he travels great distances to make sure of every single piece of information he is told . And you who sit in your house with air conditioning have no right object on this method . And when it comes to the forth one , Allah tells us to avoid negative assumptions while you simply say Hadith is corrupted and that the writers are liars and hypocrites . You even go to call the companions hypocrites !!

3 - History mentions a huge range of claims and accusations against Quran and else . Why don't we EVER hear about deniers of Sunnah in the time of the prophet peace upon him and his companions ? Why didn't anyone at all say that we must ONLY follow Quran and abandon anything else ? You talk about baseless theories accusing Hadith and I'm talking rationally here . If this path you're going down is really true , then how come no one noticed ? There's a difference between different explanations of verses and between an essential matter such as this .


4 - Through this method which you hate so much and make fun of , we know that there is a man called "Muhammad" and that there are people who lived with him called "Companions" and that Allah sent a book to him called "Quran" . So without this method , we loose our history . And based on that , anyone can deny that there was ever a man called Muhammad - peace upon him - and and deny that there were companions . In fact , anyone can deny anything with this method you follow . I for example can deny that there was world war one . How can you ever object on me ? I didn't see it and only heard about it from people who heard about it from others . Then it must be a fable .

Posted by: mclinkin94
« on: November 03, 2013, 1243 pm »

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Whenever the issue of the authenticity of reports ascribed to the Prophet of God Pbuh are raised, the sects keep bringing up verses of the Quran to try and prove that we are supposed to follow what the Prophet Pbuh said.


Why do they have to be reminded again and again that that is not the issue? There are no two opinions on this particular issue.


The 99.9% non verbatim impossible to verify reports are the real issue.

And no it is not a satisfactory state of affair to claim that dozens of "scholars" have declared these reports authentic. In a Taqleedy (to accept without questioning) system it is not difficult to cite dozens of scholars photo copying the work of each other.

And no it is not enough to say it is very complicated to explain how these scholar clones go about determining the authenticity of a report.

Simplify it.

Above all back the tall claims associated with these secondary sources.

How did the compilers of these reports for instance know which companions were hypocrites and which were not? Quran 9:101 is clear on the issue, not even the Prophet Pbuh knew.

No don't pretend to be angry answer the question. We are not insulting the companions; we are trying to identify the hypocrites among them

How did Bukhari go through 600,000 reports without making a single mistake?

Why are these reports not verbatim if they were transmitted by the same people who gave us the 100% verbatim Quran?

Why are so few reports credited to the Prophet's closest companions?

And a dozen other impossible to answer questions.

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But the hadith story here is irrelevant. Leave that for another debate. The question here is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?

And through all the verses I provided, the answer is YES. Without a doubt. (If you disagree here, please post verses as to why and why I am wrong) Leave out ALL of the hadiths for now, leave out ALL of the rhetoric and fallacies. And just for a limited time, leave out your scientific reasons to reject evolution. Just present verses. If you cannot and every-time you do I answer you logically, I expect honesty! Nay, I BEG for your honesty! Then we can decide whether the Quran does or doesn't support evolution, irregardless of hadith or whether you think evolution is true. That is how we can remain honest. I swear to Allah that I have been and will continue to remain honest. I need you to do the same, swear here under oath. Allah does not like liars. We both will be honest completely. Further, you need to drop all of the bias and just be unbiased and neutral to everything. The Question is: Does the Quran support the basic idea of evolution?, This is to be answered irregardless of whether you think it is true or not.

Now, you haven't refuted those verses logically at all. Rather, you just claim that I am ignorant in the Arabic language despite giving you clear word for word translations to an Arabic speaker like yourself.

So if you are to say that the Hadith rejects evolution and we should therefore change the interpretation or meaning of the clear Quran to match Hadiths, then you are just plain wrong.
Posted by: mclinkin94
« on: November 03, 2013, 12:29:09 pm »

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Quote from: Black Muslim on November 03, 2013, 12:03:40 pm

It is time for the father of Hanifa to rest his legs . I'll work with the advice of a teacher and stop this . I didn't do all this for you really . I did it because I was afraid for people to be fooled by this misguidance you preach .
The same as before , you haven't answered what kills your belief in rejecting Sunnah , neither did you answer me showing you and people how the site you bring works against you , neither have you answered me proving that the prophet did know the hypocrites .
Yes , I do know Arabic , that's why I keep saying that you fail to understand anything Quran says in a correct way . And if another native Arabic speaker so this , he will blame me for going this deep into trying to reason with you .
I did what I have to do .
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Al-Kahf (Cave) 29 : And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve."


The same could be said to you. But I see this as you giving up. The evidence is clear and nothing will convince an unwilling person like yourself.

I have already answered you in everything, but to you they aren't good enough.

I and ALL Muslims agree that the Quran is divine and the Hadith is manmade. Therefore, if the Quran conflicts a hadith, you support the Quran irregardless of your emotions. You don't like this, I know....I know. But in the battle between emotion and reasoned logic. Pick logic!

Further Quran 19:101 has said Muhammad doesn't know who the hypocrites were at his time. Nowhere does the Quran say that Muhammad was successful at finding all hypocrites. And if by chance, he was, when the prophet died--how exactly did he fight off the new hypocrites that carry on the hadiths?? Ironically at least two Sahih Hadith in the Muslim's compilation confirm this by admitting to 12 hypocrites masquerading as companions and who's identities were never revealed.

Further, I have shown you how the site I bring doesn't work against me and works in my favor. I also broke down everything for you in little pieces, but evidence doesn't convince the unwilling. Further, you have not at all showed me how the word-for-word translation of the Quran goes against me, you just claim you have. I have responded to your points clearly.

I provide evidence, you reject the evidence. Its been like that the entire way. And the sad part is, you reject the evidence through fallacies and rhetoric.

Yes, you do know Arabic and you keep saying that I fail to understand the Quran without providing evidence or a reason. IN fact, I provided you with a source and a breaking everything down. Yet, you still deny.

Further, I have spoken to many Arabic speakers on the word "ahsana" they ALL said it means to make better.

Not only that I have shown you the verses in context.

What more do I need to do?

You have failed in every way possible. It is just ridiculous at this point.

لا دليل على أن النبي كان يعلم المنافقين من الصحابة

و بهذا لا يمكننا الجزم بكون أي منهم مسلماً و بالتالي لا نقبل روايتهم و نرفض الأحاديث

يذكر البخاري في كتابه أنه يوم القيامة سيأتي أصحاب النبي إليه عند الحوض فيعرفهم و تردهم الملائكة قائلين أنه لا يعرفهم و قد ابتدعوا من بعده

و لكن هناك إشارات أن الصحابة لم يكونوا مقربين من الرسول
فأول ملاحظة عبارة الصحابة غير لائقة قرانيا فالصاحب لا تعني بالتأكيد الصديق أو القريب فقد تشمل المنافق و المشرك أيضا فمعنها في القران هي الجوار
مَا ضَلَّ صَاحِبُكُمْ وَمَا غَوَى
ما صَاحِبُكُم بِمَجْنُونٍ
يَا صَاحِبَيِ السِّجْن
فالقران نعت أتباع الرسول بالإنصار يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آَمَنُوا كُونوا أَنصَارَ اللَّهِ كَمَا قَالَ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ لِلْحَوَارِيِّينَ مَنْ أَنصَارِي إِلَى اللَّهِ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحْنُ أَنصَارُ اللَّهِ فمن وضع هذا المصطلح من الأول كان جاهلا بأيات الله تعالى

ثاني ملاحظة هي مخالفة هؤلاء للرسول فالرسول فكل حياته كانت حروبه دفاعية ملتزما بما جاء في القران و النهي عن نشر الإسلام بالغصب و نشره بالدعوة و الموعظة الحسنة و مباشرة بعد موته بدأت مختلف الغزوات لإحتلال الدول بإسم الإسلام